NCS open-division 3 seedings

[Smallveteran]

Salesian
DLS
SRV
Dougherty Valley
Cal High
Liberty

Div 1

Dublin
Acalanes
Redwood
Amador Valley
Monte Vista
Archie Williams
Alameda
Clayton
Bishop odowd
Campolindo
Albany
Montgomery
Rancho Cotate
Pittsburg
Ygnacio Valley
Terra Linda

Div 2

Moreau
Cardinal Newman
St Mary’s Berkeley
Lick Wilmerding
Urban
Las Lomas
Northgate
Maria Carillo
Marin Catholic
University
Heritage
Piedmont
Santa Rosa
San Marin
Aracata
College Park

Div 3

Cornerstone
Branson
St Joseph Alameda
San Domenico
Livermore
Benicia
San Rafael
Eureka
Washington (Fremont)
Foothill
Hayward
Head Royce
Mckinleyville
Mission San Jose
St Patricks
El Cerrito

 

[MC415]

Marín Catholic beats Redwood 73-70!

 

[Smallveteran]

semetri played ?

MC has some grit

Moved them up on chart

Redwood moves to #3

 

[Positive Influence]

@Smallveteran, your effort on this is commendable…I think it’s been mentioned previously, but all of this is conjecture and doesn’t matter come seeding time. The “committee” (not even sure it’s needed anymore) will seed directly from Maxpreps rankings. A team may move 1 or 2 spots max based on head to head. But if football and girls volleyball are any indication, they won’t deviate from the Maxpreps rankings much at all. In my mind, the system rewards mediocrity.

 

[510sportsfan]

The dumbest part about the system is the limit on the amount of divisions up or down. Almost guarantees that division 2 ends up having the strong d4 teams with the best seeds and the d3 bracket being loaded with the top d5 teams. If we are gonna just go by rankings then just make it super simple and don't limit how much a team can go up or down. Which would essentially make all the brackets other than open and D1 consolation brackets (which is essentially the case anyways except we will have very good teams winning d2 and d3 instead of having a chance to compete for a more meaningful d1 championship)

 

[Smallveteran]

@Smallveteran, your effort on this is commendable…I think it’s been mentioned previously, but all of this is conjecture and doesn’t matter come seeding time. The “committee” (not even sure it’s needed anymore) will seed directly from Maxpreps rankings. A team may move 1 or 2 spots max based on head to head. But if football and girls volleyball are any indication, they won’t deviate from the Maxpreps rankings much at all. In my mind, the system rewards mediocrity.

When Terra Linda was ranked 4th per max preps. It seemed meaningless! It was not though, it created laughable conversation. Do not be surprised that some people believed the MP generated ranking. Their was one writer who said they were the #8 best team he has seen.

At no point were they the 8th ranked team. Not by any stretch of the imagination!

We can understand where you’re coming from in regards to MaxPreps being the ultimate judge. We like the new NCS playoff rules. That does not mean we will not be open to suggesting improvements . One thing is for sure, we will not do so until the season is over. For now we play with what we got. The REAL NCS LiST will continue to move forward.

 

[Positive Influence]

When Terra Linda was ranked 4th per max preps. It seemed meaningless! It was not though, it created laughable conversation. Do not be surprised that some people believed the MP generated ranking. Their was one writer who said they were the #8 best team he has seen.

At no point were they the 8th ranked team. Not by any stretch of the imagination!

We can understand where you’re coming from in regards to MaxPreps being the ultimate judge. We like the new NCS playoff rules. That does not mean we will not be open to suggesting improvements . One thing is for sure, we will not do so until the season is over. For now we play with what we got. The REAL NCS LiST will continue to move forward.

If you don’t mind me asking…What specifically do you like about it? I genuinely am asking in case I’m missing the advantages. Trying to keep an open mind

 

[ayalar09]

If Stuart Hall got a 1 seed with the way their season is going, I’d do a backflip into the lake at Golden Gate Park….I don’t care if it’s D5!

 

[CoachRandal]

Joe Matthews recently wrote an article on Competitive Equity after the football playoffs that appeared in the SJ Mercury News. I wrote him the letter below which I’m attaching as an FYI. There are differing opinions on all this and for now we need to live with the system as is.


Joe,

I appreciate you taking an interest in the HS playoffs competitive equity system. Very little is written about it. I am in my 20th year as a high high school head basketball coach and am a founder and the President of the Bay Area Basketball Coaches Association (BABCA) and can attest that us coaches think and talk about the “Competitive Equity (CE)” a lot. The coaches I talk to almost unanimously dislike and many outright hate the CE playoff system. You may want to do a follow-up getting our feedback. Here are some reasons why we dislike Competitive Equity in HS sports.

CE Counters the lessons we are teaching - HS sports is part of an education and the primary lesson we teach is hard work and teamwork are rewarded with success. CE kills this lesson because success is punished with winners getting placed high and losing in the first round while mediocrity is rewarded. Teams that come in 4th in league end up “State Champs” and players wonder why they worked so hard. Many coaches call this “socialism in sports”.

The lower divisions are meaningless - lower divisions used to have great teams and players. Now they are weak and nobody cares about them. It is like nobody cares about the NIT or CBIT in college basketball or the Weedeater Bowl in College football. CE has turned the lower divisions all into “Zombie Bowls”. Nobody cares and nobody watches. The State Championships are no longer on TV for good reason.

CE is unfair to small enrollment schools - it is a lose lose for small enrollment schools. If good they are moved up and lose. If they are mediocre bigger schools are moved down and they lose. Enrollment is not the determining factor it was but it still matters. We have done regression analysis that show enrollment predicts approximately 25% of teams’ Maxpreps rankings. Ignoring that puts small schools at a significant disadvantage. Not all small schools are Sierra Canyon. We also looked at schools when getting moved up 2 or more divisions in basketball and in these situations they only win about 20% of the time. A fair fight would be 50%.

The strong are getting stronger and the weak are getting weaker. Competition in the upper divisions is leading to teams working harder and getting better. Lower division teams are losing their best players who want to go to real teams competing for real championships.

Lowering standards does not lead to success at disadvantaged schools. The move to CE has been driven by trying to help disadvantaged schools. Many are now winning championships but is it success for a school with 3000 students to succeed by beating small rural schools with 300 students. Did the SFUSD eliminating the algebra requirement for 8th graders help its students get better at math?

BABCA has advocated for an enrollment based system with power teams being pulled up to an Open Division. With the power teams removed everyone has a shot and win championships when they are good not when they are mediocre and get moved down divisions. When this type of system was briefly in place around 2015-18 it worked great. The CCS uses a similar system in basketball and volleyball and everyone loves it. Moreover in such a system Disadvantaged schools could petition to be moved down divisions to address their specific situations.

The CIF and its sections are so fragmented and disjointed that our efforts have gone no where. Also there are more mediocre and weak schools than excellent schools so competitive equity is popular with administrators at under achieving schools which is why it wins votes and gets approved by CIF.

Ultimately the playoffs should be a reward for achievement not a crapshoot where mediocrity is rewarded. The CE system now in place is making some people feel good in the moment but it is not preparing our student athletes for life.

Thanks for hearing this out if you are still reading it.

Randy Bessolo
President
Bay Area Basketball Coaches Association
Boys Basketball Coach
University HS

PS another issue worth addressing is the messed up transfer rules

 

[ayalar09]

While I agree with your premise, I think saying it doesn’t prepare the kids for life is kind of wrong. Quite the contrary, it teaches them that life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re going to get. While I’m sure that wasn’t the intention of CIF when they created this system, this is the system and my guess is it will not be changed again for at least another decade. So coaches either have to accept it, or join a league independent of CIF.

The LA Dodgers in baseball right now. They have taken the competitve equity right out of the sport. To a point where if you cheer for any other team, what is the point? I know it’s comparing pro to amateur, but with NIL and other things the gap between the two isn’t as large as it once was.

If a coach/enough coaches don’t like the system, then start a league in CA independent of the CIF/NCS/SJS/etc and make the rules to your liking. I personally would love to see this, but I don’t think the coaches have the time or the energy to do something like this.

 

[Smallveteran]

Northgate has both seniors back in the lineup. Harris is a game changer .

Northgate wins over Campolindo

 

[Smallveteran]

If you don’t mind me asking…What specifically do you like about it? I genuinely am asking in case I’m missing the advantages. Trying to keep an open mind

Genuinely were in the middle of the season. The rules are set so we wait til season ends.

We like that the rules are clear and definitive. Less complaining from the schools, coaches, parents and fans . About how they got robbed out of higher seed or placed into the wrong division. It’s a computer algorithm so figure it out . It is the same for everyone.

Their are some schools that have been in a decade/two decades cycle of losing. Some have not won more then a north coast game during that period. This year a couple teams will have a chance to win a game and a realistic shot at two games maybe even three. That would not of had the chance in the old system. It will always hurt some and help others. Just like the old system did !

It’s also nice to see for example Cornerstone competing at the high d3 level vs last year d6 . they should not be playing d6. D3 is an improvement and progress. It is exciting for the program and school. Maybe this new format allows them to continue the growth and strength of their program.

Their are examples as to why the new format is not good. For now we live with it and embrace the competitive spirit inside of it. In the end you still gotta get it done !

 

[Smallveteran]

Northgate moved up beats campolindo moves down
Arcata up blast Eureka down
Card Newman beats Montgomery no move

Salesian
DLS
SRV
Dougherty Valley
Cal High
Liberty

Div 1

Dublin
Acalanes
Redwood
Amador Valley
Monte Vista
Archie Williams
Alameda
Clayton
Bishop odowd
Campolindo
Albany
Montgomery
Rancho Cotate
Northgate
Ygnacio Valley
Terra Linda

Div 2

Moreau
Cardinal Newman
St Mary’s Berkeley
Lick Wilmerding
Urban
Pittsburg
Las Lomas
Maria Carillo
Marin Catholic
University
Heritage
Arcata
Piedmont
Santa Rosa
San Marin
College Park

Div 3

Cornerstone
Branson
St Joseph Alameda
San Domenico
Livermore
Benicia
San Rafael
Washington (Fremont)
Foothill
Hayward
Head Royce
Mckinleyville
Eureka
Mission San Jose
St Patricks
El Cerrito