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Top 20 thoughts?

ClayK

ClayK

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Jun 25, 2001
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So Mitty is 1 -- maybe the best NorCal team ever? Two USA Basketball gold medalists on the same team? Size everywhere? Great coaching?

OK, enough. Then what?

If Cardinal Newman's Brazilian transfer is eligible, there's No. 2. If not, I think CN drops back into the pack of usual suspects.

SMS: Again, are the transfers eligible? Hear Antelope is fighting back.

Folsom: Awfully good. But good enough to challenge Mitty?

San Ramon Valley: Right there with pretty much everyone back.

Bishop O'Dowd, Salesian, Oakland Tech, Pinewood, Carondelet. Some questions for each, but more than a little talent too.

I think Piedmont drops into the next tier, along with Acalanes (size is the issue). Pleasant Valley won 30 games last year and has everyone back. Vanden is always good.

Who else though? Evergreen Valley? Christian Brothers (30 wins last year)? Lincoln of Stockton? St. Ignatius?
 
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Since I moved back to Calif in 2010 and started following girls basketball closely the best 2 NorCal teams (during that time period) IMO were the SMS team that got upset by PW in the Norcal Open semis and the Mitty team that lost to CW in the OPEN final. BOTH teams were the #1 ranked team in the country at the time. Will Mitty be the #1 team in the country this year? Seems to me we should start there when discussing GOAT. As a member of the MaxPreps ranking committee I would assume you'd have some very relevant thoughts on this ClayK.
 
I'm not doing the MaxPreps' rankings any more, but Long Island Lutheran has 9 D1s and four or five P4s. Mitty is top three in the country. Etiwanda is ahead of Mitty, from what I understand, and maybe DeSoto or Montverde.

But every year is different in terms of the top teams. Sometimes there's one clearcut best, other times there are a bunch, and sometimes you're scrambling to pick somebody.
 
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northbaybbguru said:
Since I moved back to Calif in 2010 and started following girls basketball closely the best 2 NorCal teams (during that time period) IMO were the SMS team that got upset by PW in the Norcal Open semis and the Mitty team that lost to CW in the OPEN final. BOTH teams were the #1 ranked team in the country at the time. Will Mitty be the #1 team in the country this year? Seems to me we should start there when discussing GOAT. As a member of the MaxPreps ranking committee I would assume you'd have some very relevant thoughts on this ClayK.
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Mitty lost to PW (not CW), right?
 
Ah. I was thinking of 2018, when PW beat undefeated and National #1 Mitty in Triple OT in the Open (Norcal) Final

You're talking the year before, when CW beat them in the Open (State) Final. I did not realize Mitty was the top ranked team in the country then too. Wow.
 
ClayK said:
So Mitty is 1 -- maybe the best NorCal team ever? Two USA Basketball gold medalists on the same team? Size everywhere? Great coaching?

OK, enough. Then what?

If Cardinal Newman's Brazilian transfer is eligible, there's No. 2. If not, I think CN drops back into the pack of usual suspects.

SMS: Again, are the transfers eligible? Hear Antelope is fighting back.

Folsom: Awfully good. But good enough to challenge Mitty?

San Ramon Valley: Right there with pretty much everyone back.

Bishop O'Dowd, Salesian, Oakland Tech, Pinewood, Carondelet. Some questions for each, but more than a little talent too.

I think Piedmont drops into the next tier, along with Acalanes (size is the issue). Pleasant Valley won 30 games last year and has everyone back. Vanden is always good.

Who else though? Evergreen Valley? Christian Brothers (30 wins last year)? Lincoln of Stockton? St. Ignatius?
Click to expand...
Not only is everyone back for Pleasant Valley. I believe they are only all Juniors this year.

Here's wishing you great hoops
 
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Woodside Priory is a top 20 NorCal (and top five CCS) team if/when its transfers are eligible. They have several D1 talents and surprising depth for a tiny school.
 
ClayK said:
So Mitty is 1 -- maybe the best NorCal team ever? Two USA Basketball gold medalists on the same team? Size everywhere? Great coaching?

OK, enough. Then what?

If Cardinal Newman's Brazilian transfer is eligible, there's No. 2. If not, I think CN drops back into the pack of usual suspects.

SMS: Again, are the transfers eligible? Hear Antelope is fighting back.

Folsom: Awfully good. But good enough to challenge Mitty?

San Ramon Valley: Right there with pretty much everyone back.

Bishop O'Dowd, Salesian, Oakland Tech, Pinewood, Carondelet. Some questions for each, but more than a little talent too.

I think Piedmont drops into the next tier, along with Acalanes (size is the issue). Pleasant Valley won 30 games last year and has everyone back. Vanden is always good.

Who else though? Evergreen Valley? Christian Brothers (30 wins last year)? Lincoln of Stockton? St. Ignatius?
Click to expand...
Clay, that is fake news...Antelope is not fighting any transfer. Pure false truth....We wish her/family all the best.
 
ClayK said:
So Mitty is 1 -- maybe the best NorCal team ever? Two USA Basketball gold medalists on the same team? Size everywhere? Great coaching?

OK, enough. Then what?

If Cardinal Newman's Brazilian transfer is eligible, there's No. 2. If not, I think CN drops back into the pack of usual suspects.

SMS: Again, are the transfers eligible? Hear Antelope is fighting back.

Folsom: Awfully good. But good enough to challenge Mitty?

San Ramon Valley: Right there with pretty much everyone back.

Bishop O'Dowd, Salesian, Oakland Tech, Pinewood, Carondelet. Some questions for each, but more than a little talent too.

I think Piedmont drops into the next tier, along with Acalanes (size is the issue). Pleasant Valley won 30 games last year and has everyone back. Vanden is always good.

Who else though? Evergreen Valley? Christian Brothers (30 wins last year)? Lincoln of Stockton? St. Ignatius?
Click to expand...
I doubt it’s the best NorCal team ever. Too many great teams of the past that would eat all the NorCal teams up.

SHC
BOD

Those two teams alone was very busy winning across the country. Multiple back to back titles.
 
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jstblev said:
Clay, that is fake news...Antelope is not fighting any transfer. Pure false truth....We wish her/family all the best.
Click to expand...
My apologies. The source has been usually good, but will be viewed with more scrutiny in the future.
 
Teams already mentioned above in NO particular order or ranking:
1. Mitty
2. Cardinal Newman
3. St. Mary's of Stockton
4. Folsom
5. San Ramon Valley
6. BOD
7. Salesian
8. Oakland Tech
9. Pinewood
10. Carondelet
11. Piedmont
12. Evergreen Valley
13. St. Ignatius
14. Christian Brothers
15. Lincoln of Stockton
16. Pleasant Valley (Chico?)
17. Woodside Priory
18. Acalanes
19. Vanden
20. ???
Maybe McClatchy or SHC fills out the Top 20
 
ClayK said:
My apologies. The source has been usually good, but will be viewed with more scrutiny in the future.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how a transfer can really be contested. What options to the schools actually have if they want to contest a transfer?
 
Transfer procedures require paperwork from both the school the player is transferring from, and the school being transferred to. Comments can be included, and of course the school being transferred to must certify the transfer is not for athletic purposes and that there was no prior contact, either by coaches or players.

That, of course, is a fantasy, but most of the time both schools and the section pretend the transfer was motivated by a sincere desire to experience the academic excellence of the new school.

And Antelope, as I understand it, has yet to receive the paperwork, but when it does, it will sign off.
 
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bunnyhopninja said:
Woah top 20? Do you think better than Pinewood?
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Not better than Pinewood, though I think capable of beating them (and many others) on the right night. They have:

*a 6'2' post who missed last year, but is now back and just committed to D1 Cal Poly.
*three returning athletic sophomores, one of whom was 1st team all WBAL as a freshman, and another who already has a D1 offer at Fresno St.
*two junior guard transfers from Paly, both of whom were all league last year.
*twin 6'0' junior transfers from James Logan High
*a sr. shooting guard who transferred from St. Francis and sat out much of last year.

That's quite a collection of talent for a little D5 school.
 
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TheHillZ said:
Not better than Pinewood, though I think capable of beating them (and many others) on the right night. They have:

*a 6'2' post who missed last year, but is now back and just committed to D1 Cal Poly.
*three returning athletic sophomores, one of whom was 1st team all WBAL as a freshman, and another who already has a D1 offer at Fresno St.
*two junior guard transfers from Paly, both of whom were all league last year.
*twin 6'0' junior transfers from James Logan High
*a sr. shooting guard who transferred from St. Francis and sat out much of last year.

That's quite a collection of talent for a little D5 school.
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Wow! Another all league player from Paly went to Pinewood. Poor Paly. The Priory v Pinewood games will be fun to watch this year. I assume you’ll be there Hillz? How do I find you?
 
AtomicDawg1911 said:
I doubt it’s the best NorCal team ever. Too many great teams of the past that would eat all the NorCal teams up.

SHC
BOD

Those two teams alone was very busy winning across the country. Multiple back to back titles.
Click to expand...
94 Sacred Sacred Heart Prep Team! 38-0 D1 State Champions! Beat Lynwood in the State Final. Lynwood had All American Tamicha Kirby who went to Iowa. All five SHP starters played D1 college basketball. 2 were All Americans and one was a honorable mention All American. That team was led by point guard Renee Robinson, who would later star at Virginia!
 
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If memory serves, that sterling SHP program had an early 1990s run that netted an astounding 113-1 record at one point. The lone loss was a nail-biter vs. Brea Olinda (coached by legendary Jeff Sink) in a Santa Barbara tourney. SHP was so dominant 30 years ago that the L.A. Times dispatched an investigative reporter north to learn how the small, high-tuition Catholic school in affluent Atherton had been able rise to such lofty heights. She came away impressed. She found nothing approaching a shady side of the Gators behavior. Transfers, in those days, were not the norm. Center Jenny Circle was the only such player of any consequence who arrived via the transfer route (from Los Altos).
 
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That was a very good team, but ...

Those were different times. There were no major tournaments like the TOC, and I don't recall SHP ever playing teams from New York or the East Coast. Teams didn't travel as much, and the sophistication of coaching was not as high.

More important to my mind is that Mike Ciardella only played five girls. Ever. They all played 32 minutes every game, and the bench was literally along for the ride. The top five was very good and played an enormous number of games (41 one year, as I recall) but didn't have the size or depth of Mitty or the Sacred Heart teams of 15 years ago.

Renee Robinson was an elite player, one of the best ever in the Bay Area, and Jenny Circle was a solid post, but she was not at the level of Courtney Paris or Jayne Appel or Devanei Hampton -- or McKenna Wolitczko, really.

That was a very good team, though, and deserving of celebration. But for me, Mitty is clearly better: deeper, bigger, and more battle-tested on the national stage.
 
ClayK said:
That was a very good team, but ...

Those were different times. There were no major tournaments like the TOC, and I don't recall SHP ever playing teams from New York or the East Coast. Teams didn't travel as much, and the sophistication of coaching was not as high.

More important to my mind is that Mike Ciardella only played five girls. Ever. They all played 32 minutes every game, and the bench was literally along for the ride. The top five was very good and played an enormous number of games (41 one year, as I recall) but didn't have the size or depth of Mitty or the Sacred Heart teams of 15 years ago.

Renee Robinson was an elite player, one of the best ever in the Bay Area, and Jenny Circle was a solid post, but she was not at the level of Courtney Paris or Jayne Appel or Devanei Hampton -- or McKenna Wolitczko, really.

That was a very good team, though, and deserving of celebration. But for me, Mitty is clearly better: deeper, bigger, and more battle-tested on the national stage.
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Hey Clay you only have to play five! Jenny Circle was a Parade All American as was Renee! They both were one of the top 15 players in the country! Alexis Felts was an honorable Mention All American. Those 3 players were recruited by the top Universities in the Country! Half court man to man defense, no pressing and great clock management! Don’t foul and don’t turn it over. Beat Lynwood in 94 D1 State Final and beat Mater Dei in 95 D1 State Final. Those 2 teams were a combine 76-1. Lone loss was a 1 point loss to Brea O Linda. I would say that in the Bay Area those 2 teams were as good as anyone. 94 team 7 th Nationally by USA Today! 95 team 4th Nationally by USA Today! Not many West Coast teams got a national ranking during that time! Just an old guy’s opinion!!
 
WOW Freddy said:
94 Sacred Sacred Heart Prep Team! 38-0 D1 State Champions! Beat Lynwood in the State Final. Lynwood had All American Tamicha Kirby who went to Iowa. All five SHP starters played D1 college basketball. 2 were All Americans and one was a honorable mention All American. That team was led by point guard Renee Robinson, who would later star at Virginia!
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i said that before on another thread... renee robinson was absolutely dynamic as a lead guard. i watched that 94 team in awe at that game. EPA's finest.
 
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I would disagree that you only need five in today's game. There's no question the pace is much faster now, and it's hard to see how five girls today could keep up with the depth and constant pressure of top-flight programs.

The other difference is three-point shooting, which barely existed at the time. Renee was never a great three-point shooter (23% at Virginia her senior year) and though Alexis Felts was good from outside, modern defenses would make adjustments.

Strength of schedule is key, as I mentioned before.

As for the Parade All-American team, it was hardly definitive back in the day. No one paid attention to girls' basketball on a national level, and even a few years later, when I started working with Parade to do those rankings, there was a lot of guesswork. Stats were few and far between, the level of competition varied wildly, and coaches would simply lie. So you wound up taking players from the best teams because there were no other options, really.

Again, that was a great team, especially for its time. But today, I don't think you can play five kids, only one of whom is a consistent three-point shooter, and beat teams like Mitty, LuHi, Etiwanda and Montverde.
 
So Clay..where do u put the SMS best teams?

Whether it's the Chelsea Gray , Jackie G. yrs?

Or the DeCosta squad? The year PW upset them they went EVERYWHERE and played EVERYBODY and were undefeated until the unbelievable, biggest upset in Calif history (many writers were saying that at the time including Cal Hi). I know u remember that year cause it ALMOST allowed Miramonte and Sabrina to sneak in the back door and win a national championship (until the Open final loss to Chaminade)
 
I do remember, though I was coaching at Campo at the time.

I never felt SMS had the depth of a team like, say, Mitty. They had a couple big stars, and I think they were also limited by their scheme. If you could break the press, the defense dropped off dramatically. And as good a coach as Tom was in some ways, I think his emotional volatility hurt them quite a bit at times.
 
ClayK said:
I do remember, though I was coaching at Campo at the time.

I never felt SMS had the depth of a team like, say, Mitty. They had a couple big stars, and I think they were also limited by their scheme. If you could break the press, the defense dropped off dramatically. And as good a coach as Tom was in some ways, I think his emotional volatility hurt them quite a bit at times.
Click to expand...
I remember back then thinking if they could just teach those SMS girls to get back, slap the floor, get down and play some serious m2m how anyone would ever score on them instead of that press. And I don't disagree with u on the volatility comment.
 
Regarding the comment about the speed of today's game. That only applies if a team agrees to press and run right along with a foe trying to do the same. You cannot force a team to press and run. SHP chose a half-court approach. Which greatly frustrated athletic, full-court units used to undisciplined teams. SHP's halfcourt approach was perfect then and now. Low turnover rate. Terrific shot selection. Limited fouls. Careful attention to the shot clock.Total focus on both ends of the floor with each possession valuable. They did not toss away opportunities. They rebounded with five on the defensive glass. They did not leak out. In many ways, they were the antithesis of what far too many iffy prep outfits do now. Ironically, college basketball is mainly a half-court affair with an SHP-type scheme. Coaches don't enjoy up-and-down, loosy-goosy, free-form hoops. Intelligent control is the order of the day. It works. In fact, the better the personnel, the better the results. Before the SHP run, Burlingame was doing the same thing in the 1980s and won a CIF DIII title with a 36-2 record in 1988. Both mentors, Steve Picchi and Mike Ciardella, came out of the Tom Martinez School of Basketball Fundamentals. Martinez was a legendary three-sport coach at the College of San Mateo for nearly a half-century.
 
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Perhaps. I am a half-court man coach, and yet my teams always got up and down the court.

As for low turnovers, that in part came from just playing his five girls, and I think it would be harder for him to impose tempo in today's game. The formula you mention -- low turnovers, grind it out, tough half court man -- is a good one, no question, but there's a reason elite teams don't play that way any more: It's just not as effective and it's harder to get teams to slow down.

And again, the ecosystem was so much different then, and the coaching so much less sophisticated, that such a style had a much greater chance of success.

(And philosophically, I never liked playing the same five up 40, and leaving four girls on the bench the whole game. But that was a great team, no doubt.)
 
ClayK said:
Perhaps. I am a half-court man coach, and yet my teams always got up and down the court.

As for low turnovers, that in part came from just playing his five girls, and I think it would be harder for him to impose tempo in today's game. The formula you mention -- low turnovers, grind it out, tough half court man -- is a good one, no question, but there's a reason elite teams don't play that way any more: It's just not as effective and it's harder to get teams to slow down.

And again, the ecosystem was so much different then, and the coaching so much less sophisticated, that such a style had a much greater chance of success.

(And philosophically, I never liked playing the same five up 40, and leaving four girls on the bench the whole game. But that was a great team, no doubt.)
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Mike Ciardella - never poured it on anybody. Most times his starters played half the game! To make a statement like that, shows that you knew nothing about his philosophy and his coaching method!
 
Give Monta Vista some credit, a legitimate neighborhood public school. They went 25-4 in 1994, losing three times to SHP, nearly upsetting the Gators in the CCS finals. The following year, in 1995, went 25-3, with two more losses to SHP, including a one point margin in the CCS finals.
 
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scvalfan said:
Give Monta Vista some credit, a legitimate neighborhood public school. They went 25-4 in 1994, losing three times to SHP, nearly upsetting the Gators in the CCS finals. The following year, in 1995, went 25-3, with two more losses to SHP, including a one point margin in the CCS finals.
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Great team with the Clark sisters. Those games drew huge crowds, standing room only at Monta Vista and College of San Mateo! They were the premiere teams in the Central Coast Section and Northern California at that time!
 
ClayK said:
So Mitty is 1 -- maybe the best NorCal team ever? Two USA Basketball gold medalists on the same team? Size everywhere? Great coaching?

OK, enough. Then what?

If Cardinal Newman's Brazilian transfer is eligible, there's No. 2. If not, I think CN drops back into the pack of usual suspects.

SMS: Again, are the transfers eligible? Hear Antelope is fighting back.

Folsom: Awfully good. But good enough to challenge Mitty?

San Ramon Valley: Right there with pretty much everyone back.

Bishop O'Dowd, Salesian, Oakland Tech, Pinewood, Carondelet. Some questions for each, but more than a little talent too.

I think Piedmont drops into the next tier, along with Acalanes (size is the issue). Pleasant Valley won 30 games last year and has everyone back. Vanden is always good.

Who else though? Evergreen Valley? Christian Brothers (30 wins last year)? Lincoln of Stockton? St. Ignatius?
Click to expand...
Its silly how good Taissa Queiroz is from Newman. I've been to a lot of games over the years and often times the player is more "hype" than reality. Not in this case. This is the ultimate compliment and its not meant to be a downgrade but she plays like the "guys.". Incredible all-around talent. I would imagine everybody will be offering after the season.
 
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Queiroz changes the equation -- she gives Newman a shot against Mitty.
 
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