Can someone define the Undue influence rule
- Thread starter 3 baller1224
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The use of undue influence by any person or persons to secure or retain a student or to secure or retain one or both parents/guardians of a student as residents may cause the student to be ineligible for high school athletics for a period of one year and shall jeopardize the standing of the high school in the CIF.
In the vast and barely regulated Southern Section, the Wild West of the CIF, there is no such phrase as "undue influence." The operative phrase is "anything goes."
Maybe some of these high school coaches need to work on getting AAU programs. Coach Ramee of American has been doing it and now American is strong. The same with Mission San Jose.
that’s quite an accusation about American and Mission. All of their players are in their own school district. Ramee and Doug have always had good teams..even when the talent was down.
What I mean is that getting good AAU programs help the schools. I'm not saying there is anything wrong. I'm using that argument to say AAU is NOT undue influence. If you get a high school coach involved in a AAU program it shows the parents and the players how much they are willing to put into the high school program they coach at. I think American and MSJ are doing the right thing and there is nothing wrong about it. I don't look at it as undue influence.
How much they are willing ....to lie and cheat...Sue is that you on the board ....
Welcome...let’s dance
Welcome...let’s dance
Maybe in some cases but anything that involves $$ for these coaches can create quite a bit of influence.
Play for me in my club and then go to my high school team. Or how about play for me in my club and don’t play in HS or how about play for me in my club and don’t play any other high school sport or play for my club if you want that scholarship! Not trying to be cynical but club sports is not necessarily good for HS sports. Would love to hear about positive examples
I think the AAU clubs have plenty of positives especially if you play for a highschool with no connections or the coach isn't interested in helping kids get recruited that have D1,D2 or even D3 talent. Plenty of girls get looks from AAU clubs. A lot more than from "most" high school teams because "most" high school coaches aren't actively helping kids get recruited. Lizzie Moore out of Valley Christian San Jose is a prime example. She was discovered from her AAU club. It happens all the time.
https://norcalpreps.rivals.com/news/moore-ready-to-breakout
Well you do get sometimes, situations like Megan Ripinoe and her twin sister. They played basketball there Freshman and Sophomore years in high School, and they excelled at it too.
They stopped after Sophomore year. They went to club Soccer, and the rest is history. National Champions in soccer at Portland. Olympics for Megan after.
Not saying this is ,or should be the template for how to do things. It is an exception.
Here's wishing you great hoops.
Basketball players are not developed in high school. The key period is the middle school ages, when the fundamentals are taught (or not taught) and much experience is gained.
Every good high school coach I have known has run some kind of summer program, either a couple weeks of a camp and some tournaments, or an AAU team. Most, however, do not run AAU programs because the competition in those tournaments is usually against all-star teams, not other high school teams.
Regardless, success is dependent on getting the girls who will attend your high school to start playing for you, learning your system, learning fundamentals, in middle school. It is sheer fantasy to think that any high school program can be successful by a coach just waiting to see who shows up on the first day of practice in November and then going from there.
Every good high school coach I have known has run some kind of summer program, either a couple weeks of a camp and some tournaments, or an AAU team. Most, however, do not run AAU programs because the competition in those tournaments is usually against all-star teams, not other high school teams.
Regardless, success is dependent on getting the girls who will attend your high school to start playing for you, learning your system, learning fundamentals, in middle school. It is sheer fantasy to think that any high school program can be successful by a coach just waiting to see who shows up on the first day of practice in November and then going from there.
Sam Manu of Aragon runs the San Mateo Suns. Providing a place for the Aragon and other Peninsula kids to play in the spring and summer has helped the school program tremendously. It is NOT a money maker for him, his coaches donate their time and their is no recruiting happening. With that said, if you are a student athlete with a choice, why not attend a school with a coach that is invested.
Receiving a college scholarship takes a lifetime of work and dedication. Basketball especially requires year round development. Successful high school’s programs provide year round opportunities because that’s what the kids and parents are looking for. Any coach willing to dedicate their time year after year to help kids accomplish their goals should be applauded.
Overall, I agree, but I do think it's important to emphasize that playing one sport and one sport only from age 11 or 12 on is generally not the best way to go. Patrick Mahomes is just one example of many of how playing more than one sport helps overall athletic development. It also prevents burnout, which is all too common among young athletes who specialize too early, and helps avoid injuries.
I think having a main sport -- the one you focus on in the summer -- is important, but for basketball, for example, playing volleyball in the fall is an excellent complement to basketball. Water polo and lacrosse are also good, as they have the same kind of spatial structure as basketball, and if soccer had not been moved to the winter, that was a good alternative.
Often, parents are convinced by coaches (usually in volleyball and soccer) that kids have to play one sport only or they'll fall behind, but many, if not most, of these coaches have a financial interest in getting kids to play their sport and so their advice should be taken with a grain of salt. Listen, rather, to college coaches in football and other sports who say they prefer to recruit multi-sport athletes in high school because they are more well-rounded.
I definitely agree kids should play multiple sports or at least cross train up until high school. Specializing in high school for most is probably best though with so many kids specializing. The multi sport athletes in the pros you speak of were rare breed athletes that could have went pro regardless. Basketball is a game of skill, so long stints without playing isn’t necessarily helpful.
I don't disagree but I think once you get to a certain age in high school it's better to pick the sport you like most or the one you have the best opportunity of playing at the next level. Maybe being Multisport frosh and soph is good but It's not a bad thing to pick one sport coming into your junior season. But It's not a bad thing to play two sports either it just depends on how serious you are about the sport. It's a matter of perspective in my opinion.
Also, the Development of a player does continue in high school. I've seen plenty of players who were Middle School MJs get passed up in high school.
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Agree, as once you get to junior year in high school, decisions have to be made case by case. Different kids need different things at that point. But specializing in middle school, in my experience, really doesn't help much and it can hurt a lot (injury/burnout).
Along that line, one thing I hear parents say is "She just wants to play basketball -- so why not?" Well, she might want to have an ice cream sundae for breakfast every day, but just because she wants it doesn't mean it's best for her.
Along that line, one thing I hear parents say is "She just wants to play basketball -- so why not?" Well, she might want to have an ice cream sundae for breakfast every day, but just because she wants it doesn't mean it's best for her.
As far as injuries are concerned, parents need to invest in strength and conditioning coaching to help with injury prevention and improve bio mechanics that often lead to injuries. Kids play more games than ever. It’s crucial to invest in strength training just like skill training . It’s well documented Lbj has invested over a million dollars into his body and it shows.
Almost all football players all multi-sport athletes due to the lack of off season full participation. Football is a in season sport only. Sure you can attend camps but the beauty of football it does allow time to play other sports when football is not in season. Basketball, volleyball and soccer are more involved in terms of off-season participation as there is really not an off season.
If CIF could shrink the seasons to allow students to play a sport, take a week off and then start the next sport you would see more multi-sport athletes.
I will only speak as to girls' basketball, based on the last 24 years of coaching a lot of girls at the elementary and middle school levels, and having followed them through later high school and college careers.
If the objective is to become a top player in a top program, almost all players need to go pure basketball at least two or three years before they start high school. That's what the girls they will compete against do, and delaying makes things a lot harder and more problematic.
For every girl who keeps playing multiple sports through 8th grade and still becomes a basketball success, there are probably a dozen girls who do that then hit the wall at the JV level or make varsity as juniors and seniors and watch games from the bench.
Wish I had a dollar for every parent who has told me that "back in the day we played all the sports" then watched his or her daughter flounder at the high school level.
If your kid wants to keep playing multiple sports for the fun of playing multiple sports, I am all for that. But don't fool yourself into thinking it will somehow make her a better basketball player. You get good at basketball by practicing and playing basketball, and by doing physical training focused on your basketball needs.
I agree about the skill level, to a point. But one of the biggest factors in success in anything is enthusiasm and excitement. And girls who play nothing but basketball from age 11 on are much, much more likely to lose the thrill of the game. I see girls who play 60 or 70 games of club ball, and then add 25 or 30 in high school, and after a while, it looks like none of the games matter any more, and they just don't care that much.
In the long run, success is as much about attitude as it is about talent, and a player who's getting bored with her sport at age 16 could easily be passed by a player who plays with enthusiasm and excitement.
Of course every person is different and some players will thrive doing just one thing. Others won't.
For me, I used to play a lot of softball (several nights a week, tournaments) but I found if I played year-round, I wasn't as effective. I needed to take a couple months off every year to get myself mentally prepared to play well. Whatever I lost in skill I gained in enthusiasm. Others felt differently -- but one size does not fit all.
In the long run, success is as much about attitude as it is about talent, and a player who's getting bored with her sport at age 16 could easily be passed by a player who plays with enthusiasm and excitement.
Of course every person is different and some players will thrive doing just one thing. Others won't.
For me, I used to play a lot of softball (several nights a week, tournaments) but I found if I played year-round, I wasn't as effective. I needed to take a couple months off every year to get myself mentally prepared to play well. Whatever I lost in skill I gained in enthusiasm. Others felt differently -- but one size does not fit all.
I whole heartedly disagree that if you want to be a top player, you have to eat sleep, drink pure basketball. Kids who ONLY play one sport from a young age typically burn out (a lot of times) as they get older. Playing multiple sports at a younger age does wonders for the kids mentality, efficacy, and orientation-especially if she/he is successful. There are many sports that have tons of crossovers..soccer and hoops being one of the major ones. I think more often than not (probably wrong here) kids who specialize at a young age do so because of parents that think they'll be better focusing on one sports where he research paints a much different story
You might be right if different sports were actually played at different times of the year. If a player could spend 3-4 months on one sport, then go to the next, then the next that would probably be more fun and better physically and mentally.
But today's reality is that all the sports go all year. Young athletes are stacking up practices and games on a daily basis. You can't balance one sport against another. All you get is cumulative injuries and burn out. Balance isn't 3-4 sports. Balance is one sport, playing an instrument, traveling to another state or country, reading books, and hanging out with non-sports friends.
More specifically, soccer and basketball are a toxic mix. Watch a 7th grader change out of her shin guards into basketball shoes for practice, wincing with pain because she's got Osgood Schlatter and can't bring herself to choose one sport or the other.
This is complete gibberish. Personallogic is making a factual point that the competition is committed to playing year round so if you want to succeed you may want to consider doing the same.
Sure kids that play year round the same sport from age 11 do risk getting burned out and losing the thrill. The kid that shows up the first day of practice after taking their three months off to regain their enthusiasm will lose the thrill within a few hours. They will quickly realize their skills have deteriorated to a point where they know they are no longer at the competitive level of their teammates.
3 months will deteriorate skills to a point where they no longer are competitive? Are you a club soccer or volleyball coach?? That's totally absurd. It may take a little time to readjust but it's like riding a bike...have you ever played high school sports or college?
Think about a the time BEFORE specialization and the multi-sport athlete...it's not a big deal to do multiple sports and NO, you won't get worse and other much better
I agree that I also disagree with personal logic. Yes if you want to be a "top player" (and here is the key) "you have the talent to develop" then yes maybe specializing in basketball is for you. But there are not a ton of Haley Jones' (Mitty) or Sabrina Ionescu's (Miramonte) out here relative to number of HS teams.
There is also a TON of research that specialization leads to overuse injuries. Going to get the sports performance trainer will not solve this alone and may even lead to further injury (unless you have a REAL DEAL trainer).
And the reason Jr and Sr are sitting the bench (IMO) is not necessarily lack of development, but it is based on some false logic that the freshman and sophomores are better because they are in the club for years and years. The kids that get left out of basketball are multi sport athletes or kids that aren't playing in the club year round. There are quite a few "better athletes" sitting the bench. There are plenty of basketball players that pay the fees for club and are not necessarily good or better than those that do not play club, yet they get more playing time in HS.
Team full of freshman and juniors that play and no sophomores or seniors cause get who did not get a fair "tryout". Easy out for the coach just to say these players are better than these. Good coaches have balanced programs with seniors leading the way. After ALL, if they ARE in your club shouldn't they ALL get better every year....
it's not 3 months, it is 6 months (3 sport athlete) and that is compounded yearly. I am all in favor of multi sport athletes but to say that because you have more enthusiasm is going to make you better is not accurate. I'm in favor of reducing the length of the season so there is a gap between the sports of at least a week to allow more multi-sport athletes. However, that is not reality in the world today.
Ultimately there are multiple avenues to becoming a successful athlete. Likewise there are a multitude of reasons athletes top out. Smart parents will individualize their kids development based on fit and not follow the crowd. I’ve never seen 2 athletes succeed using the exact same formula. Dedication, luck, and perseverance are the common factors I’ve seen in successful athletes. Injuries happen, some players don’t pan out, some kids develop at a young age, and others are late bloomers. Just like life sometimes it’s about being in the right place at the right time.
Agree with the above -- as I said, one size does not fit all, so I think it's a mistake to make a blanket statement that every player must specialize as soon as possible.
I do disagree, though, with the idea that skills decline after a month or two off (and those who read my post might have noticed that I suggested two sports, and focusing on one in the summer). Basketball is a difficult game, granted, but it's not that difficult to dribble and shoot. It may take a week or so for the muscle memory to click back in, but that's what the three weeks of practice before the first game are for.
But again, for some kids, playing one sport from middle school on will work, and enthusiasm will not dim nor will injuries specific to the sport occur -- though of course there's no way to predict whether either will happen.
For other kids, playing two sports is better -- though of course it's possible they will be passed by by the specialists.
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ...
I do disagree, though, with the idea that skills decline after a month or two off (and those who read my post might have noticed that I suggested two sports, and focusing on one in the summer). Basketball is a difficult game, granted, but it's not that difficult to dribble and shoot. It may take a week or so for the muscle memory to click back in, but that's what the three weeks of practice before the first game are for.
But again, for some kids, playing one sport from middle school on will work, and enthusiasm will not dim nor will injuries specific to the sport occur -- though of course there's no way to predict whether either will happen.
For other kids, playing two sports is better -- though of course it's possible they will be passed by by the specialists.
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ...
When you talk about taking a month or two off it makes me think we're not talking about the same thing. When people tout the benefits of playing multiple sports I assume they're not suggesting that kids play multiple sports at the same time. Obviously, you're not going to cram a second sport into a month or two. Or even three months.
More realistically, kids who stop playing basketball in February or March, then pick it up again in October or November are going to lose a lot of ground. Just to get back to where they were is going to take several weeks and maybe even a couple of months. I see this with hundreds of kids every year so it's not just speculation.
In fact, watching many multi-sport athletes who start basketball in third or fourth grades, and continue through eighth grade, I see a lot of them finish without even what I would consider the basics. Heads up dribbling, layups both hands, decent release on jump shots, good on the ball defensive fundamentals, etc. Certainly in no way prepared for high school level play.
The same can be said for players who play year round. its very rare that you actually find an AAU program that teaches fundamentals..the ones you're talking about. It's even harder to find good trainers to teach exactly what you're talking about...what they can do very good is dribble the ball while juggling a tennis ball and masters of dribbling two balls at one time. AAU is good for two things...getting game time experience and the most importantly, showcasing individual talent
So let me repeat:
The main sport should be played in the summer. The secondary sport should be played only during its high school season. So, most common for basketball:
Fall: Volleyball
Winter, spring, summer: Basketball
Or
Fall, winter, summer: Basketball
Spring: Lacrosse
The summer is really the differentiating factor -- that's where the focus should be for the main sport.
The main sport should be played in the summer. The secondary sport should be played only during its high school season. So, most common for basketball:
Fall: Volleyball
Winter, spring, summer: Basketball
Or
Fall, winter, summer: Basketball
Spring: Lacrosse
The summer is really the differentiating factor -- that's where the focus should be for the main sport.
Someone referenced this above, but in terms of the burnout factor--WHO is driving the specialization? I think that will be the precursor to the possibility of the burnout. Is it the child wanting to be great in the sport they love? Or is it the overly ambitious parent pushing to keep up with the Joneses or trying to live vicariously through their child?
If the player is the one CHOOSING to put in more time and focus on one sport, this typically ends up far better when they are being pushed/forced to stop playing other sports and to train when perhaps the athlete's heart isn't into it.
I know I've actually talked a few athletes of mine into continuing their second sport when they wanted to quit and focus. But after discussions with them, they still enjoyed their second sport but felt like they needed to get in the gym more for college options developing their game. My point to them was always, "If you really enjoy your second sport, then play it. Find time outside of the school day or on weekends to squeeze in some extra workouts in your primary sport to grow and stay ready if that's your goal."
Of course with my own daughter, she played 4 sports throughout 7th and 8th grade and often did the stacked practices referenced above hopping from one practice to another. But these were all her choices. After having a lot of success in several sports, she decided she wanted to focus on basketball and her grades entering her freshman year. I told her I wanted her to play at least one other sport her freshman year and see what other HS sports are like...but she was adamant she wanted to train and get good grades. So she committed herself to working out 4-6 days a week after school and maintained a 4.00 throughout HS. So things worked out for her but it was her choice. As she made choices, we laid out a plan for her to achieve HER goals.
The path isn't the same for everyone and not every player is a scholarship caliber kid. But when the choices come from the player things will work out the smoothest in the end.
If the player is the one CHOOSING to put in more time and focus on one sport, this typically ends up far better when they are being pushed/forced to stop playing other sports and to train when perhaps the athlete's heart isn't into it.
I know I've actually talked a few athletes of mine into continuing their second sport when they wanted to quit and focus. But after discussions with them, they still enjoyed their second sport but felt like they needed to get in the gym more for college options developing their game. My point to them was always, "If you really enjoy your second sport, then play it. Find time outside of the school day or on weekends to squeeze in some extra workouts in your primary sport to grow and stay ready if that's your goal."
Of course with my own daughter, she played 4 sports throughout 7th and 8th grade and often did the stacked practices referenced above hopping from one practice to another. But these were all her choices. After having a lot of success in several sports, she decided she wanted to focus on basketball and her grades entering her freshman year. I told her I wanted her to play at least one other sport her freshman year and see what other HS sports are like...but she was adamant she wanted to train and get good grades. So she committed herself to working out 4-6 days a week after school and maintained a 4.00 throughout HS. So things worked out for her but it was her choice. As she made choices, we laid out a plan for her to achieve HER goals.
The path isn't the same for everyone and not every player is a scholarship caliber kid. But when the choices come from the player things will work out the smoothest in the end.
Volleyball's club season is right after the season and goes till may...no summer club ball.
If the genuine choice comes from the kid, especially entering high school, then I think that's okay. she was able to sample multiple sports and decided that that sport was for her and you supported it. Personally, where I don't agree with is kids at 6, 7, 8 wanting to only play a sport and parents kind of pushing that agenda too instead of allowing a kid the options of playing multiple things. It's never going to change because there's too much money in the hands of trainers and AAU coaches who push this culture...if you're not playing hoops year round, you're not getting better and you're going to fall behind the others. it's really hogwash...
So I just happened to meet a young woman today who played volleyball at St. Mary's of Stockton and drew some college interest. "I loved volleyball," she said. "It was all I did."
She played year-round from eighth grade on -- and quit before her senior year. "I was just done," she said. "I was burned out."
She graduated in 2014 and hasn't touched a volleyball since.
Doesn't happen to everyone, of course ...
She played year-round from eighth grade on -- and quit before her senior year. "I was just done," she said. "I was burned out."
She graduated in 2014 and hasn't touched a volleyball since.
Doesn't happen to everyone, of course ...
