Equity move is working

[colhenrylives]

At least on the female side of the ledger, the CIF's effort to create state tournament basketball playoffs based on perceived competitive equity, or talent-balance, seems to be working. This weekend, ten of the 12 finalists in six divisions are public schools. In the past under an enrollment-based arrangement, private and parochial schools tended to dominate. Over on the male side, the new system appears to be working less favorably. There, only seven of the 12 finalists are of the public persuasion. Not bad, but not at the level of the girls. One NorCal section that has yet to benefit from the equity setup is the Central Coast. No CCS girls' team has played for a CIF crown since the new system was instituted. The main reason: The two CCS private/parochial leagues, the WCAL and WBAL, gobble up most of the available talent and leave the publics with scraps. The last CCS public to play for a state title (in a losing effort) was Monta Vista of Cupertino in 1992.

 

[Streak One]

I wish there was a clear rationale for these changes. More different schools in the state finals? More public schools in the state finls? More competitive games through the bracket?

I just feel like we are trending toward manipulating the bracket to get a certain outcome instead of creating a fair state tournament

 

[jstblev]

I wish there was a clear rationale for these changes. More different schools in the state finals? More public schools in the state finls? More competitive games through the bracket?

I just feel like we are trending toward manipulating the bracket to get a certain outcome instead of creating a fair state tournament

You are completely on point....

 

[colhenrylives]

The rationale, really a multi-faceted approach: More competitive games throughout each tournament division and more chances for public schools to capture a CIF title.

 

[keepitreal.32]

More specifically, a CCS Public!

 

[colhenrylives]

More specifically, a CCS Public!

So far, the equity philosophy has been a bit of a bust for the CCS gals. Still, hope springs eternal.

 

[colhenrylives]

At least on the female side of the ledger, the CIF's effort to create state tournament basketball playoffs based on perceived competitive equity, or talent-balance, seems to be working. This weekend, ten of the 12 finalists in six divisions are public schools. In the past under an enrollment-based arrangement, private and parochial schools tended to dominate. Over on the male side, the new system appears to be working less favorably. There, only seven of the 12 finalists are of the public persuasion. Not bad, but not at the level of the girls. One NorCal section that has yet to benefit from the equity setup is the Central Coast. No CCS girls' team has played for a CIF crown since the new system was instituted. The main reason: The two CCS private/parochial leagues, the WCAL and WBAL, gobble up most of the available talent and leave the publics with scraps. The last CCS public to play for a state title (in a losing effort) was Monta Vista of Cupertino in 1992.

By the way, that old Monta Vista unit featured the Clark Twins, a pair of feisty guards who, by some miracle or odd act of nature, escaped the ravenous clutches of Archbishop Mitty, located quite close to the Matadors' campus. Today, it seems doubtful that the tough-as-nails twins would wind up playing at their local public school when the Mighty Mitty Machine continues to dominate so close by.

 

[keepitreal.32]

I would think that “competitive equity” should work for to that end. Would Los Gatos or Palo Alto destroy Los Osos? I wonder if CCS reps are allowing their teams to be misplaced.

 

[keepitreal.32]

By the way, that old Monta Vista unit featured the Clark Twins, a pair of feisty guards who, by some miracle or odd act of nature, escaped the ravenous clutches of Archbishop Mitty, located quite close to the Matadors' campus. Today, it seems doubtful that the tough-as-nails twins would wind up playing at their local public school when the Mighty Mitty Machine continues to dominate so close by.

Yeah, but they had the Sacred Heart Prep machine to deal with. Circle, Phelps, Robinson!

 

[TheHillZ]

I would think that “competitive equity” should work for to that end. Would Los Gatos or Palo Alto destroy Los Osos? I wonder if CCS reps are allowing their teams to be misplaced.

That was what I was thinking watching Los Osos today. How did they manage to snag a seed in D3 with 3000+ kids and a 20-4 (regular season record and no bad losses). Would Paly (seeded #14 in D1) beat Los Osos? Probably. But it would be competitive, as would a game v. Los Gatos (seeded #16 in D2). Maybe CCS is doing something wrong.

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

How is it working when a school of 2200 plays a school of 300 in D5?

 

[GBBall4L]

How is it working when a school of 2200 plays a school of 300 in D5?

I don't believe it was working when Mitty was dominating D2 and Pinewood was dominating D5 or 4. I think when you are at the level of the Mitty, Sierra Canyon, Etiwanda you would probably rather play in Open and not make it to State than to win D1, D2 State over and over because that's says a lot for a top Tier program that usually makes open division to not make Open division. Losing in Open division is less painful for the blue bloods than it is to play in D1 and not win state. I prefer to see the Open division matchup with Mitty and Etiwanda tomorrow. That's the point of Competitive equity. Enrollment based isn't the best method. The problem with Competitive equity is more the metrics they use to select the teams and the levels. But from what I heard you would had utter smackdowns before competitive equity and that's fun for no one.

 

[northbaybbguru]

I don't believe it was working when Mitty was dominating D2 and Pinewood was dominating D5 or 4. I think when you are at the level of the Mitty, Sierra Canyon, Etiwanda you would probably rather play in Open and not make it to State than to win D1, D2 State over and over because that's says a lot for a top Tier program that usually makes open division to not make Open division. Losing in Open division is less painful for the blue bloods than it is to play in D1 and not win state. I prefer to see the Open division matchup with Mitty and Etiwanda tomorrow. That's the point of Competitive equity. Enrollment based isn't the best method. The problem with Competitive equity is more the metrics they use to select the teams and the levels. But from what I heard you would had utter smackdowns before competitive equity and that's fun for no one.

There wern't utter smackdowns until they went to 16 team playoffs. Thats when teams that had no business making the playoffs started getting bids and the blowouts commenced.

 

[keepitreal.32]

How is it working when a school of 2200 plays a school of 300 in D5?

I think most on this board believe it’s not working. Most believe it is about “trophies” for all. So maybe at some point the selection committee will create a division for schools that lose all their local basketball players to other schools. (Privates aren’t the only ones getting transfers). More trophies

I do think big school vs true small is stupid. Especially a public.

 

[ClayK]

First, Los Osos should not have been D3. A bad mistake by the committee. Of course, it could be that the Southern Section commissioner did some great negotiating/horse trading to get that seeding.

Second, what would a "fair" tournament look like? Pinewood and Mitty winning D5 and D2 every year, O'Dowd dominating D3 and Cardinal Newman in D4? How specifically would you change the system? And of course, no matter what the system, there will still be glitches, like Los Osos and Colfax both in D3.

 

[GBBall4L]

I think it's all about seeing the best schools play the best schools. Having the best match up. Nobodies perfect but If it weren't for this system we wouldnt have seen some of the open Division match ups of the past. At the Open division it's been good however some teams are put in the open division as cannon fodder just to make a bracket bigger. But there is a cost with everything. If it weren't for competitive equity some of the Open division state championship opportunities might not have happened and a school like Pinewood would have just pummeled another small school for the state championships when Hannah Jump was there. Etiwanda is over 3500 enrollment and Mitty is over 1700 enrollment. Would this matchup today still happen in the old system? I don't know enough to answer that.

 

[TheHillZ]

Why isn't the CCS approach the best of both worlds? The top X teams, the basketball dynasties with an occasional upstart, play for the "best of the best" title regardless of size. You get Mitty v Pinewood v. St. Ignatius v. Palo Alto. The rest play in divisions according to enrollment. The winners of the lower divisions can claim to be the "best" school of their size (recognizing that they benefit from the elevation of a couple super-programs to Open).

As it stands, it is utterly random. Los Osos is rewarded for being the 29th best school of its size with a D3 state championship? Marina High School, enrollment 2300, is playing tonight for the D5 championship. What does it stand to win? The title of "better than most much smaller schools, except the good ones"

Does any other state do it this way?

 

[northbaybbguru]

First, Los Osos should not have been D3. A bad mistake by the committee. Of course, it could be that the Southern Section commissioner did some great negotiating/horse trading to get that seeding.

Second, what would a "fair" tournament look like? Pinewood and Mitty winning D5 and D2 every year, O'Dowd dominating D3 and Cardinal Newman in D4? How specifically would you change the system? And of course, no matter what the system, there will still be glitches, like Los Osos and Colfax both in D3.

CN has won ONE section title in the history of their program. Probably not the best example of a team "dominating" a division. Just to remind everyone that if it was the old system this seasom in D4 the top 4 seeds would have been 1) Piedmont, 2) Salesian 3)CN 4) Marin Catholic. Pretty darn good!

The entire reason for the OPEN to begin with was to get the powerhouses out so the other teams had a chance. The CIF keeps tinkering and its just making it worse and our state playoff sytem has become a joke. And now the brainiacs are pushing for CE in the NCS. Get ready for the days of small.schools that over acheive and have a once in 20 yr season being placed in D1.

 

[ClayK]

A reasonable system. You'd still get powerhouses that were just short of the Open dominating enrollment-based divisions, but you wouldn't have the mismatches you occasionally get.

One other point: Each section sets its own enrollment standards for Divisional placement. So one year Mater Dei was D-II out of SoCal with 2,200 students or something. Meanwhile, schools from other divisions with similar enrollments were D-1. The sections do that to make sure there's a reasonable balance of teams in each division as a one-size-fits-all enrollment decision would create problems at the section level.

 

[ClayK]

There is no perfect system.

But let's say a smaller school has that once-in-20-years season. So should they roll through D-III, winning every game by 35? How is that fair to the other D-III schools?

And what if a school, say its name is Pinewood, is that good every year? Do they then get placed in a higher division because of their history?

 

[kiddman32]

I really think that, with a few tweaks to avoid the huge enrollment mismatches…. as discussed already, an enrollment floor for the lower 2 divisions, this system ain’t bad and would work quite well.

 

[northbaybbguru]

There is no perfect system.

But let's say a smaller school has that once-in-20-years season. So should they roll through D-III, winning every game by 35? How is that fair to the other D-III schools?

And what if a school, say its name is Pinewood, is that good every year? Do they then get placed in a higher division because of their history?

We are going to disagree on this one....

Cause i firmly believe that if a team comes out of the North (for example) and has a great class come thru and they have a once in a 20yr team i would say YES they should get their chance of rolling thru their level and win it (even if every game is by 35). ABSOLUTELY.

 

[northbaybbguru]

There is no perfect system.

But let's say a smaller school has that once-in-20-years season. So should they roll through D-III, winning every game by 35? How is that fair to the other D-III schools?

And what if a school, say its name is Pinewood, is that good every year? Do they then get placed in a higher division because of their history?

The Pinewood example is EXACTLY why the OPEN was started in the 1st place. So why the CE for the rest of the divisions? CE is the problem.

 

[short17]

We are going to disagree on this one....

Cause i firmly believe that if a team comes out of the North (for example) and has a great class come thru and they have a once in a 20yr team i would say YES they should get their chance of rolling thru their level and win it (even if every game is by 35). ABSOLUTELY.

Totally agree. Teams that should have a legitimate chance to make it to a state final are moved up to face bigger schools while teams they defeated stay put or even move down. In most states schools know who their competition is. Under the present system they don’t. The biggest issue is that there is not a statewide set of rules. The sections wield the power and do their own thing to the detriment of a true state champion in an enrollment based division. It may not be perfect, but it takes opinions and computer ratings out of the picture.

We also need to get back to win and move on. Lose and you’re done. This second chance, and the padding of the brackets with so many teams that shouldn’t be playing, utter nonsense.

It’s a money grab. Make the games more meaningful and the crowds will increase.

 

[northbaybbguru]

CE= punishing small schools for over acheiving
CE= rewarding large schools for having mediocre years

As EVERYONE knows...the CE dirty little secret? Its actually better to lose games during the season, avoid the OPEN, get placed in lower division and LOSE in the finals (or if in the NCS the final 4 in d4/d5) if u want to make a state championship run.

And that is completely and utterly ridiculous.

The system is dumb.

 

[GBBall4L]

I get the argument and heard stories about schools losing games or booking soft schedules so they get put in a weaker division during state and have a chance to win a state title. Cough cough Menlo

So what's the answer to improve this? Take only the teams that have the ability to compete UP and not move anyone down at all? Maybe that will take away from those wanting to throw games to go win state at a lower division. Do you think the option to get pulled up should be the only option but not move down? Maybe that will work. Sounds like a tough situation.

 

[keepitreal.32]

Since a perfect system is impossible I say schools that get player transfers or are historically basketball player magnets go Open or D1. Start this in section play. Private schools aren’t the only ones that have players magically appearing that can play ball. After that enrollment based is good.

 

[da real]

One state. One champion.

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

That’s exactly it. Allows teams to move up but not down. Schools with 3,000 kids should play Open or D1. If you don’t make that field, your season is over.

What’s lost in the small, private school dominance is the small, rural school dominance. Why should schools the size of 300-500 have to move up 3-4 divisions when they’ve worked hard to build that?

If CE works, then teams should be FIGHTING to get to Open and D1, not avoiding it. Let’s use the NCAA for reference. Not one NCAA school would choose to be the #1 seed in the NIT/WNIT over being the 68 seed for March Madness. But in CIF, some schools are happy to drop down a few divisions. Does a PAC-12 school get to drop down to the D2 tournament because they’ve been subpar in the PAC-12 for a couple years? No. They go home.

We have to look at the factors of what makes March Madness work and what doesn’t work for competitive equity. How do you shift the mindset? But I think you start by not letting teams drop down. There were teams with their worst team in 5 years in our section that won section championships this year because they were dropped down to D4/D5. I personally don’t think this is right.

 

[ClayK]

I like that. So a D-1 team can go D-1 or Open, a D-2 team can D-2, D-1 or Open, and so on.

 

[GBBall4L]

I like that. So a D-1 team can go D-1 or Open, a D-2 team can D-2, D-1 or Open, and so on.

But you can NOT drop down and cheat the system. Sounds like we figured it out. MAN RULE 😆

 

[keepitreal.32]

I like that. So a D-1 team can go D-1 or Open, a D-2 team can D-2, D-1 or Open, and so on.

And we’re back where it used to be. At least in CCS. Mitty used opt to play up to D1. SHP won state titles in D5, D1, D1, D5 in a row.

I liked that too but not all should play up would.

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

I don’t think you necessarily give schools the choice to go up. If selected for Open, you are Open. Look at the enrollment disparity in the D5 boys’ game. Both public schools.

 

[northbaybbguru]

Wait wait..did i read this right? Central High School has 4420 students???? What? D2?

Equity move is working? Huh?

 

[cptmycpa]

Although we already beat this to death and this belongs on the "Boys Basketball" thread, here's another example: Boys CIF Division 5 Finals - Lynwood (SoCal) easily beats Sierra (NorCal) 89-58, for the D5 title.

2023 CIF State Boys Basketball Championships (Division V )

View the 2023 CIF State Boys Basketball Championships (Division V ) Bracket

www.maxpreps.com

Lynwood's student enrollment is 2,176.

Lynwood High School (Ranked Bottom 50% for 2024) - Lynwood, CA

Lynwood High School is ranked within the bottom 50% of all public schools in California. Serving 1,952 students in grades 9-12, this school is located in Lynwood, CA.

www.publicschoolreview.com

Sierra's (Tollhouse, CA, Central Section) student enrollment is 315.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/districts/sierra-unified-school-district/sierra-high-school-3443

Both public schools. Sierra looks like the true D5 school. In the Sac-Joaquin Section, Lynwood would qualify at the D1 level. This particular game did not appear to be competitive equity. Some of the SoCal schools were seeded two or more divisions down.

 

[observer22]

Although we already beat this to death and this belongs on the "Boys Basketball" thread, here's another example: Boys CIF Division 5 Finals - Lynwood (SoCal) easily beats Sierra (NorCal) 89-58, for the D5 title.

2023 CIF State Boys Basketball Championships (Division V )

View the 2023 CIF State Boys Basketball Championships (Division V ) Bracket

www.maxpreps.com

Lynwood's student enrollment is 2,176.

Lynwood High School (Ranked Bottom 50% for 2024) - Lynwood, CA

Lynwood High School is ranked within the bottom 50% of all public schools in California. Serving 1,952 students in grades 9-12, this school is located in Lynwood, CA.

www.publicschoolreview.com

Sierra's (Tollhouse, CA, Central Section) student enrollment is 315.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/california/districts/sierra-unified-school-district/sierra-high-school-3443

Both public schools. Sierra looks like the true D5 school. In the Sac-Joaquin Section, Lynwood would qualify at the D1 level. This particular game did not appear to be competitive equity. Some of the SoCal schools were seeded two or more divisions down.

But somehow they are legitimately a “D5” school in the CIF Southern Section. So even a rule not allowing them to play down wouldn’t have stopped this atrocity. Lynwood scored over 100 points 7 times this year including 3 times in the postseason.

 

[ankleassassin]

if it is student based how big are the san jose city schools? shouldnt they be much better? what about the fresno city schools?
3000 students doesnt mean much if the talent isnt there.
yall stop crying and go work out

 

[kiddman32]

3000 students certainly increases the chances of having a few good hoopers than 400 students does, though, by quite a lot.

 

[ankleassassin]

3000 students certainly increases the chances of having a few good hoopers than 400 students does, though, by quite a lot.

then why are the san jose school so god awful?

 

[colhenrylives]

In the end, if we have to choose one key factor for the decline of San Jose-area and Central Coast Section hoops, both male and female, it's this: Demographics.