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Looking at Potebtail CIF State Game Matchups

Sorry I try to scroll by things,but this is ridiculous. Joe Ngata is a great athlete. But having seen both play I still think Shaq was not just better, but much better in high school!

The issue I see -- not just relating to this discussion but sports talk in general -- is recency bias. I see it in what the media writes as well. Sometimes people lack perspective.

For example, in the NFL the QB's of today aren't necessarily better than the QB's of 25+ years ago simply because they are putting up greater statistics. That's where the perspective comes in. The game has changed. Drastically. A big reason for the change is due to numerous rule changes the past 15 years. The passing game is so much easier than it's ever been. So today's coaches and players are taking advantage of it. If you need proof, go look at the numbers of some of the successful QB's whose careers started several years before many of the pro-offensive rules went into place. Check out the numbers Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Drew Brees were putting up pre-2003/04 and what they did consistently after. Same goes for all the WR's.

Now apply the same to high school football. The game has changed drastically the past 10+ years with high schools quickly emulating college offenses. But just because these kids are piling up more statistics doesn't mean they are better. But fans often get fooled into believing so because they are seeing stats and records they've never seen before.

NGATA numbers in HS are far superior to Stallworth. Not even close.

As I touched upon in my reply above. It's about perspective. And stats don't tell the story.

Do you know what Brandin Cooks stats looked like in HS when he played at Lincoln? Nothing too eye popping. And he's a top WR in the NFL right now and one of the best to ever come out of the SJS. If Cooks or Stallworth played in an pass happy offense/system like Folsom's, they'd have produced more than they did at their respective schools. It's really not hard to connect those dots.

People have been talking about Folsom's QB's for nearly 10 years now and how it seems more system than player. While I don't totally agree, there is some merit to it. Because every QB that has played in that system has produced gaudy numbers -- some with better college success than others.

Same is true of their WR's. Cole Thompson, Tyler Trosin, Josiah Deguara, J'Juan Muldrow, Will McClure, Andrew Benavides. Joe Ngata.
All of those kids put up 20+ TD's and a mass of receiving yards. Thompson had the most with 34 TD's. None of them are as good as Ngata. But none of them sans Ngata are as good as Donte Stallworth either. Or Shaq Thompson. Or Rae Carruth. Or Matt Barnes. Or Austin Collie. Or Brandin Cooks.

And therein lies the point. Don't use numbers to judge these things. It's apples to oranges. Different eras. Different teams. Different everything.

Having said all that, I'm right with you regarding Joe Ngata being one of the best players to come out of the SJS. He belongs in the SJS's Heisman House -- if they had one.

But is he better than Kevin Wilhite (#1 recruit in the Nation over Bo Jackson and Marcus Dupree) or Lance Briggs or Onterrio Smith or Tedy Bruschi or Austin Collie or Brandin Cooks or any other great player you can name? I can't say that. All I can say is he belongs in the discussion and that stats don't make or break the case.
 
This right here.I also think In the long run Badger will prove to be the better player

I can't wait to see what Badger does next season as the clear cut #1 guy. We have no idea whether he's as good or better than Ngata was at this point last season when he was a JR. Joe never had a player like himself in front of him as Elijhah does. But Badger certainly made more of an inpact as a SOPH than Joe Ngata did at the same age.

I was actually surprised Folsom didn't utilize Elijhah more against DLS than they did. I thought they'd have it in their game plan to go his way with all the attention Joe Ngata was going to get. And while he did make some plays, there just wasn't the concerted effort to go to a kid that looks to be nearly as big, strong, fast, and talented as their #1 guy. In a couple of Folsom's postseason games last season, I thought Badger was their best player. Joe obviously helped that by taking away coverage. But it goes both ways too. Elijhah helps take coverage off Joe too once he starts beating defenses like a drum.
 
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Better than Grant's Donte Stallworth? HAHAHA. NO.

Donte also played both ways and was tremendous on both sides of the ball. A la Henry To'oto'o and DJ Williams of DLS and Lance Briggs of Elk Grove. Just an absolute beast. He once manned up 6'6" Matt Barnes who scored 28 TD's in 12 games and blanketed him.

I think some don't realize how much effort it takes to play at a high level on both sides of the ball. And also return kicks. If Donte was part of a platoon system and only played on offense and was in a spread system like Folsom's, I don't think I'm crazy in thinking he could have scored more than the 34 TD's Cole Thompson put up in 2014.

Shaq Thompson is another just like him. He played both ways and even had to switch offensive positions to help with injuries and team needs. QB. RB. WR. LB. DB. Return kicks. He did it all. If left to focus on one thing and in a Folsom like offense ....... OMG!
 
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If a healthy 2009 Shaq Thompson had to cover a healthy 2018 Joe Ngata, I'd say 2009 Shaq wins almost every time.

We don't know what Ngata's college and pro futures will look like. I think most assume he's going to beast in college and has a good shot to make it to the NFL.

But we do know that Shaq not only was one of the best ever from the area, he succeeded in college and is an NFL starter on a good NFL team. I like my chances with a guy like that over an unknown every day of the week. But if Joe Ngata ends up as the next Julio Jones 6+ years from now, we might be saying how laughable the comparison was. We just don't know yet.

But judging off just what I've seen them do in HS, I like Shaq's chances against any receiver I've seen play. I'm talking healthy Shaq, not the Shaq that gutted it out on one leg against Folsom in 2010 (as did Ference Lang).
 
that 2009 grant team that lost to rocklin featured 5 nfl players

Devontae Booker. Shaq. James Sample. Who were the other 2? Vei Moala never actually made it on a 53-man roster that I recall.

I believe the 2010 defense had 8-9 starters go D1 FBS. IIRC, Ference Lang started out JC but went to Utah after?

James Sample. Vei Moala. Shaq Thompson. Ference Lang. Caleb Cameron. Trayvon Henderson. Puka Lopa. Darryl Paulo. Filipo Sau.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Doesn't Folsom have a big junior program too. They seem to be growing the game in a society where Football is becoming a taboo sport. Having junior teams supports good high school teams, kids who won't have a good high school to play/learn at, might look for one. As a football fan, I appreciate what they are doing. They are attempting to grow the game and are doing so at a school with good academics and the kid's futures in mind.

IMO, Del Oro is equal in this regard. They've seemingly always had an elite youth program and huge community support. The school is very good academically too.
 
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There’s an OT starting for ‘Bama, a three year starter at that, who’s also a Folsom product. Jonathan Williams, I think, is his name. Could be mistaken
Yep the Williams kid who started in DAVIS......

He's actually from Georgia. Moved to CA and enrolled at Davis and played there as a SOPH. Then transferred over to Folsom.

He graduated from Folsom but isn't a Folsom product. He's a GA kid first and foremost.
 
But Onterrio Smith was the one I walked away from games shaking my head... He's the best I've seen around here.

I'm right with you on this one. I'd say he and Lance Briggs that 1998 season were off the charts good. Never seen players like them before or since. As far as QB's go, Aaron Garcia, Troy Taylor, and Randy Fasani were phenomenal and would have put up wicked numbers in today's game.
 
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Devontae Booker. Shaq. James Sample. Who were the other 2? Vei Moala never actually made it on a 53-man roster that I recall.

I believe the 2010 defense had 8-9 starters go D1 FBS. IIRC, Ference Lang started out JC but went to Utah after?

James Sample. Vei Moala. Shaq Thompson. Ference Lang. Caleb Cameron. Trayvon Henderson. Puka Lopa. Darryl Paulo. Filipo Sau.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ronald Fields made it to cowboys but didn’t make the 53. Desmond Epps is playing in arena for rattlers

Lang didn’t have grades even after juco which is the case for a lot of grant players smh

I still can’t believe rocklin beat that team I was rocklin biggest fan vs servite they almost pulled it off without their qb and top wr since he had to play out of position. From 2008-2010 we feel we should’ve went to open 3 straight years. 2018 folsom is dominate but I don’t think they’d do well against the better grant teams especially seeing how dls shut them down all folsoms firepower is on offense
 
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I'm right with you on this one. I'd say he and Lance Briggs that 1998 season were off the charts good. Never seen players like them before or since. As far as QB's go, Aaron Garcia, Troy Taylor, and Randy Fasani were phenomenal and would have put up wicked numbers in today's game.

I don’t think bulldog has the memory you have since he created his first handle in 2010. I don’t think this Folsom team could handle a good Nevada union team them boys were big. Hell even grants 2004 was big fast and featured 3 nfl players. Dj Williams Worrell Williams and gerwin were some of the biggest and athletics kids I ever seen play in high school
 
I'd take Ngata over Shaq all day.

Shaq got beat by the 2010 Bulldogs who were no where near the talent that this 2018 Bulldogs team is.
I see ThunderRam beat me to the punch on pointing out the flaw in this post even though he didnt quote you directly. It's a flawed comparison to use the performance of Shaq in a game when he was injured. He was very average at best while trying to nurse that injury.
 
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I have to laugh when I hear (see) someone say Ngata didn’t get any looks because of all the sacks and interceptions. The reason he got sacked so much is because his receiver was covered. The interceptions came do to the FACT the receiver he was throwing to was covered. I also felt that Badger was not used enough. One thing I do know about dls is they are going to take away whatever can beat them. Joe Ngata can beat them so they took him away. The funny thing is they took him away with a kid that probably doesn’t have a college offer and is nowhere near a 4* recruit. But I would also agree it doesn’t take away how good Ngata really is.
 
I'm right with you on this one. I'd say he and Lance Briggs that 1998 season were off the charts good. Never seen players like them before or since. As far as QB's go, Aaron Garcia, Troy Taylor, and Randy Fasani were phenomenal and would have put up wicked numbers in today's game.


Forgot about Briggs. Those Thundering Herd teams were unreal. Briggs had a great NFL career. Christ he had a better career than a lot of people. 7x pro bowl LB. He wasn't as highly recruited out of HS either. Might have been a 4 star player but maybe just a 3? End up at Arizona which isn't exactly a factory.
 
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The issue I see -- not just relating to this discussion but sports talk in general -- is recency bias. I see it in what the media writes as well. Sometimes people lack perspective.

For example, in the NFL the QB's of today aren't necessarily better than the QB's of 25+ years ago simply because they are putting up greater statistics. That's where the perspective comes in. The game has changed. Drastically. A big reason for the change is due to numerous rule changes the past 15 years. The passing game is so much easier than it's ever been. So today's coaches and players are taking advantage of it. If you need proof, go look at the numbers of some of the successful QB's whose careers started several years before many of the pro-offensive rules went into place. Check out the numbers Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Drew Brees were putting up pre-2003/04 and what they did consistently after. Same goes for all the WR's.

Now apply the same to high school football. The game has changed drastically the past 10+ years with high schools quickly emulating college offenses. But just because these kids are piling up more statistics doesn't mean they are better. But fans often get fooled into believing so because they are seeing stats and records they've never seen before.



As I touched upon in my reply above. It's about perspective. And stats don't tell the story.

Do you know what Brandin Cooks stats looked like in HS when he played at Lincoln? Nothing too eye popping. And he's a top WR in the NFL right now and one of the best to ever come out of the SJS. If Cooks or Stallworth played in an pass happy offense/system like Folsom's, they'd have produced more than they did at their respective schools. It's really not hard to connect those dots.

People have been talking about Folsom's QB's for nearly 10 years now and how it seems more system than player. While I don't totally agree, there is some merit to it. Because every QB that has played in that system has produced gaudy numbers -- some with better college success than others.

Same is true of their WR's. Cole Thompson, Tyler Trosin, Josiah Deguara, J'Juan Muldrow, Will McClure, Andrew Benavides. Joe Ngata.
All of those kids put up 20+ TD's and a mass of receiving yards. Thompson had the most with 34 TD's. None of them are as good as Ngata. But none of them sans Ngata are as good as Donte Stallworth either. Or Shaq Thompson. Or Rae Carruth. Or Matt Barnes. Or Austin Collie. Or Brandin Cooks.

And therein lies the point. Don't use numbers to judge these things. It's apples to oranges. Different eras. Different teams. Different everything.

Having said all that, I'm right with you regarding Joe Ngata being one of the best players to come out of the SJS. He belongs in the SJS's Heisman House -- if they had one.

But is he better than Kevin Wilhite (#1 recruit in the Nation over Bo Jackson and Marcus Dupree) or Lance Briggs or Onterrio Smith or Tedy Bruschi or Austin Collie or Brandin Cooks or any other great player you can name? I can't say that. All I can say is he belongs in the discussion and that stats don't make or break the case.


Wait....what just happening here? Are my eyes deceiving me, or did somebody just put together a fantastically well-written post using:
1) common sense
2) facts
3) a neutral point of view
4) historical players and perspective
5) proper grammar
6) and no name calling

Well done Thunder, well done!
 
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Tail end of this thread has had some very good discussion. Some real high end players have come from the Sacramento area. From my money, I've never seen a more dominant player than Shaq Thompson come from the area.

One thing to remember is when we are talking about best player (or prospect which is different) coming out of high school is we can't be blinded by what they did after HS. Take Brandin Cooks for example. His HS profile is very good, but is it viewed as better than it was because he was excellent in College and the NFL?
 
I dont have a dog in this race, but I love HS Football and have watch a ton over the years. So I just state facts and what I've seen. Joe Ngata is a great player great size, strength, decent speed. I also watched him have issues making plays he makes against all other teams except De la Salle and Sac hi. Anthony Bradley of Sac gave him fits and if not for Badger(who I think is better) and his heroics, folsom would have lost to them again. But that is another story. Comparing him to Stallworth? Wow, I dont know, what about Rae Carruth? What does he do better than they did in high school? I dont care about numbers and records, different era. And the comparison to Shaq is not even close. That kid must have played a million positions in high school! Not many players in the country can play skill positions all their life and all of a sudden become a starting NFL linebacker. Time will tell, I love Ngata but he has work to do before I put him ahead of Stallworth, Collie, Carruth. He has to play on some Sundays.

Pretty much spot on brother. I remember being a teen and watching video of Stallworth. He just completely dominated games along with Onterrio Smith. I mean they owned the entire game. Never seen anything like that. Ngata is VERY good, but the other 2 I mentioned were on another level. And faster too. Ngata just does not have elite speed. I could see a college packing some pounds on him and moving him to TE.
 
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Are we running track or playing Football? NGATA is close to 6"5 now. He creates so many mis matches with his length. He can get away with not running a 4.3 40. Completely different receiver than Stallworth.

This argument is like who is better. Jordan or Lebron? Your not going to win.
Ngata will get moved to TE in college. Stallworth and Shaq dominated games. Ngata does not. Its not to say he is not good, but do you really think a 4.6 40 at the FBS level is going to cut it at WR?
 
Donte also played both ways and was tremendous on both sides of the ball. A la Henry To'oto'o and DJ Williams of DLS and Lance Briggs of Elk Grove. Just an absolute beast. He once manned up 6'6" Matt Barnes who scored 28 TD's in 12 games and blanketed him.

I think some don't realize how much effort it takes to play at a high level on both sides of the ball. And also return kicks. If Donte was part of a platoon system and only played on offense and was in a spread system like Folsom's, I don't think I'm crazy in thinking he could have scored more than the 34 TD's Cole Thompson put up in 2014.

Shaq Thompson is another just like him. He played both ways and even had to switch offensive positions to help with injuries and team needs. QB. RB. WR. LB. DB. Return kicks. He did it all. If left to focus on one thing and in a Folsom like offense ....... OMG!

I totally agree with how much different the offenses are more now. Much more pass happy. I cannot fathom what those guys would have done with the offenses of today. Also, ironman football was common back then. I was lucky to get to play both ways. It would have sucked to only play one side and not the other like alot of schools do nowadays. I saw Shaq play a couple times in person and OMG was that kat a serious baller!!! You literally held your breath everytime he touched the ball cuz you knew you were about to see something special.
 
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One thing to remember is when we are talking about best player (or prospect which is different) coming out of high school is we can't be blinded by what they did after HS. Take Brandin Cooks for example. His HS profile is very good, but is it viewed as better than it was because he was excellent in College and the NFL?

But that’s the point, Streak, many of these kids like Cooks were phenomenal players in HS but just didn’t have the same stage as others to blow people’s minds with gaudy statistics and performances.

Sure, some kids aren’t as good in HS and blossom after. But I think you’ll find many were elite already, especially skill players, but weren’t utilized to their full capabilities due to their coaches team philosophy and/or offensive system. And some look better than they really are due to the same. That’s where the scouts come in and earn their $$. Knowing which type of player they really are.
 
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I see ThunderRam beat me to the punch on pointing out the flaw in this post even though he didnt quote you directly. It's a flawed comparison to use the performance of Shaq in a game when he was injured. He was very average at best while trying to nurse that injury.

Under normal circumstances, I don’t think Shaq would have or should have played with that injury. But it was a playoff game, the section final no less, and he wasn’t gonna miss it. He gutted it out best he could but it was clearly obvious from the get go that he was nowhere near the same player. Neither was Ference Lang.

It sucked for all of us fans too, as Folsom wasn’t the same team they were either when the Pacers destroyed them week 0. We were in for a dogfight that fizzled out as the game wore on due to all the key injuries.
 
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I still can’t believe rocklin beat that team I was rocklin biggest fan vs servite they almost pulled it off without their qb and top wr since he had to play out of position. From 2008-2010 we feel we should’ve went to open 3 straight years. 2018 folsom is dominate but I don’t think they’d do well against the better grant teams

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. Coming from a guy that knew many of the kids on that Rocklin team and coached in their youth program back then, the Pacers were the better team. I believe if they played 10 times, GHS wins 7, maybe 8 of them.

IMO, Rocklin was a rare team that could threaten that Pacers defense. You couldn’t be one dimensional (see State Champ Bellevue who the Pacers shut out). Rocklin had a dynamic 40 TD rusher in Jackson Cummings and a dynamic QB in Jimmy Laughrea who had a 6’5” TE/WR along with a few other good receivers. And despite that, they still only put up 21 points and had to withstand a short FG attempt for the upset. I also think the Pacers were a little overconfident and underestimated the Thunder which is why they got behind early. But as that game wore on, it was clear to me the Pacers were better.

I know Sammyswordsman disagrees, but I firmly believe that Rocklin beats Servite with a healthy Laughrea. As you said, it cost them 2 starters with Tiger having to play QB. And they only lost by a last second FG.

I think had the Pacers won and faced Servite, I don’t think the Friars would have been able to score much. Fajardo was very good, but that Pacers defense would have smothered him. Booker would have run wild just like Jackson Cummings did. Having Troy Nicolaus certainly would have made things more interesting though.
 
Here’s some perspective he has either scored a TD (or multiple TD) or averaged more than 10 yards a catch against everyone he’s played against except young Mr Wallace this year.Yup shut down by the 354 rated California player.Shaq would bully him

I am sure he would. See below.


And "Mr. Wallace" was burned all night. He was lucky he had help over the top and a great D line. On the play below, he is blown up 5 yards down the field and is saved by the safety. Ngata can't be covered one on one.


The tape doesn't lie. People do.
 
I am sure he would. See below.


And "Mr. Wallace" was burned all night. He was lucky he had help over the top and a great D line. On the play below, he is blown up 5 yards down the field and is saved by the safety. Ngata can't be covered one on one.


The tape doesn't lie. People do.

Lol the greatest player in the history of the SJS and all you have to show is one play lol thanks for proving my point
 
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Is that why this kid shut him down

Amir Wallace

  • CB
  • 6-0
  • 155
  • HIGH SCHOOLDe La Salle
  • HOME TOWNConcord, CA
  • CLASS2019
See above. You were implying to the entire board that this kid "shut down" Ngata, which I can prove is wrong with tape. Many different plays. Kid couldn't even stay within 10 yards of the beast Ngata on a basic fly route.

You helped me prove my point. Thank you. Next time you try to troll, com with facts or tape. It will make it easier and the discussion much better.
 
See above. You were implying to the entire board that this kid "shut down" Ngata, which I can prove is wrong with tape. Many different plays. Kid couldn't even stay within 10 yards of the beast Ngata on a basic fly route.

You helped me prove my point. Thank you. Next time you try to troll, com with facts or tape. It will make it easier and the discussion much better.

One play lol you have one play to show
 
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Jonah was a better and more dominating player at his position coming out of high school. Some mock drafts have him going #1 overall depending on which NFL team has that pick.
 
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See above. You were implying to the entire board that this kid "shut down" Ngata, which I can prove is wrong with tape. Many different plays. Kid couldn't even stay within 10 yards of the beast Ngata on a basic fly route.

You helped me prove my point. Thank you. Next time you try to troll, com with facts or tape. It will make it easier and the discussion much better.
I think though, that JN was credited with one reception for eight yards for the entire game.
 
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Off the top of my head and in no particular order, here are the players I'd be most likely to include in a top 20 HS players I've seen (from the SJS/NS) and based solely on what they did in HS:

Onterrio Smith, Lance Briggs, Tedy Bruschi, Aaron Garcia, Troy Taylor, Tony Cline, Jason Fisk, Shaq Thompson, Jake Browning, Willie Clark, Donte Stallworth, Chad Elliott, Joe Ngata, Devontae Booker, John Bordenkircher, James Kidd, Ryan Robards, Matt Barnes, Dano Graves, Brian Brown

There are tons of other players I could name that I know were also phenomenal. But I only listed players I saw play quite a bit and none that were before the time I really started paying attention.

For instance, I know Marc Hicks, Vince Delgado, Kevin Wilhite, Marshall Sperbeck, etc. were all top players in the late 70's and early 80's. I knew and read all about them when I was growing up. But I never really saw them play during those times (I was in grade school). I'm more of a 1984 to now guy.

I also acknowledge more current players such as Andrew Brown (who broke Onterrio Smith's TD record) and Derrion Grim (who had 34 TD receptions) accomplished some phenomenal things. But since I didn't see them play all that much, I don't include them.
 
I think though, that JN was credited with one reception for eight yards for the entire game.
Check that. Googled an article about the game(SacBee on DLS defense that game), which credited JN with 56 yards receiving
 
Just realized that I left Jonah Williams and Clyde Sanders off that list. What a huge gaffe!
Not enough love for the lineman, but those 2 would bump out a couple of the names I listed.
 
Under normal circumstances, I don’t think Shaq would have or should have played with that injury. But it was a playoff game, the section final no less, and he wasn’t gonna miss it. He gutted it out best he could but it was clearly obvious from the get go that he was nowhere near the same player. Neither was Ference Lang.

It sucked for all of us fans too, as Folsom wasn’t the same team they were either when the Pacers destroyed them week 0. We were in for a dogfight that fizzled out as the game wore on due to all the key injuries.
Totally agree and was really disappointed to see that match-up happen when Grant was limping into the playoffs with all the injuries they had. If memory is correct I believe their were a couple other key players hurt in that game. The improvement Folosm had throughout the year made me excited to see a rematch, but instead Folsom played a shell of team they faced in week 0. I firmly believe this would have been a hell of a game if Grant was completely healthy in the playoffs.
 
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Off the top of my head and in no particular order, here are the players I'd be most likely to include in a top 20 HS players I've seen (from the SJS/NS) and based solely on what they did in HS:

Onterrio Smith, Lance Briggs, Tedy Bruschi, Aaron Garcia, Troy Taylor, Tony Cline, Jason Fisk, Shaq Thompson, Jake Browning, Willie Clark, Donte Stallworth, Chad Elliott, Joe Ngata, Devontae Booker, John Bordenkircher, James Kidd, Ryan Robards, Matt Barnes, Dano Graves, Brian Brown

There are tons of other players I could name that I know were also phenomenal. But I only listed players I saw play quite a bit and none that were before the time I really started paying attention.

For instance, I know Marc Hicks, Vince Delgado, Kevin Wilhite, Marshall Sperbeck, etc. were all top players in the late 70's and early 80's. I knew and read all about them when I was growing up. But I never really saw them play during those times (I was in grade school). I'm more of a 1984 to now guy.

I also acknowledge more current players such as Andrew Brown (who broke Onterrio Smith's TD record) and Derrion Grim (who had 34 TD receptions) accomplished some phenomenal things. But since I didn't see them play all that much, I don't include them.

Nice names Thunder. Hers a few more - Channing Willams and Ricky Jordan were quite the duo for Grant in early 80s. I think Willams was the RB for ASU in the Rose Bowl and Jordan had a nice MLB career
 
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Negative. 6 catches for 50 yards. 2 rushes for 36 yards.

So 6 catches for 50 yards is elite? He’s 6’3 and runs a 4.6 what’s elite about that? Shaq was the fastest kid in nor cal and was top rated safety in the nation and was rated top 5 as a rb also remind me again which folsom player ever made the all American team
 
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