The future: Carondelet in D4?
- Thread starter ClayK
- Start date
Presentation plays in the WCAL, arguably the strongest volleyball circuit in NorCal. Hence the tourney status. Can't speak for Carondelet.
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Competitive equity does a lot of good things, but also creates some unfair advantages based on how the brackets break. I would be in favor for a system of teams that want to play for state titles play in the 3-4 divisions that award state titles. Others can play within their section.
Then each program can choose what they want their end goal to be
Then each program can choose what they want their end goal to be
No matter how you do it, there are issues.
Enrollment doesn't count for much in basketball -- and unless all sections in the state use exactly the same enrollment guidelines, it's even worse. One year, Mater Dei and its 2,200 students were Division II according to the Southern Section rules at the time.
Some private schools are elite; most are not -- so putting all the privates together doesn't make sense.
Any system that has cutoffs -- by enrollment or competitive equity -- will reward the teams on the right side of the cutoff and punish those on the wrong side.
Enrollment doesn't count for much in basketball -- and unless all sections in the state use exactly the same enrollment guidelines, it's even worse. One year, Mater Dei and its 2,200 students were Division II according to the Southern Section rules at the time.
Some private schools are elite; most are not -- so putting all the privates together doesn't make sense.
Any system that has cutoffs -- by enrollment or competitive equity -- will reward the teams on the right side of the cutoff and punish those on the wrong side.
Carondelet in D4 ensure them a place in Open these and future. They will win D4 NCS like SMB and Salesian did back. They took turns for many years.
Where do you get the idea that Carondelet will be D4 in NCS basketball?
Clay
You scaring some teams in D4 since the took all the Competition out of the D4. D4 is a cake walk since SMB and Salesian?
You scaring some teams in D4 since the took all the Competition out of the D4. D4 is a cake walk since SMB and Salesian?
Clay,
Not sure Carondelet has the horses, chemistry, bench, etc... to make it to the Norcal open again anytime soon. Especially based on the non league schedule this season. First off, they will need to remain healthy, as the depth they enjoyed the past few seasons is no longer the luxury. Personally I like the tougher schedule. Perhaps now the goal will be as it should have been all along. And that is to work to become a much better and more confident team by March. Instead of the same team they start off as in November. The tougher schedule won't allow them to mask how much they are improving or lack there of because 30 point league victories won't happen as often. And it might force the team to create a more balanced and unselfish attack. Which will make it much harder to game plan and shut down the 1 or 2 players that typically take most of the shots. And it will help the offense continue to excel when those 1 or 2 players get injured, get in foul trouble, have an off night, or simply get shut down. Getting more players involved in their scoring might be taking a page out of the successful teams playbook. I think that unselfish balanced attack and better ball movement is what separated Mitty and Clovis West from Carondelet last season. Carondelet had enough talent last season to compete with anyone. However "imho"the bar and expectations was just set a bit low as they got satisfied and a false sense of how good they were when winning 30 point blow outs in league play. And they relied on what worked in league instead of building confident players across the board. And preparing and improving for the post season. A tougher schedule will force them to get better and more players involved in the offense or fall into a 500 win percentage team. Hopefully they will play unselfish all out hustle team ball, and pull off a few surprises. May all Norcal teams remain healthy and have a fun and rewarding season.
Great point Paytc, but what they have going against them is history. They've been an open team since it's inception and there's a good shot they'll be D1 NCS champs again. Unless they get knocked out of the semifinals in D1, they're probably gonna be a lock for open, or is this year the year it all changes across the NorCal seedings? I thought it was next year...gulp!
Time will speak more definitely than any of us can speculate. We will have to wait and see what the future holds. My early guess is there may be a surprise or two. Who knows..... perhaps Carondelet will be a surprise team? Hard to say.... either way, it should be a fun and challenging season for them. BTW I think it was the 2014-15 season Dublin high upset Carondelet in the D2 NCS. So that was the one year Carondelet did not play in the Norcal Open. Unfortunately Presentation then upset Carondelet in the D2 playoff before Mitty could get revenge on Carondelet who beat Mitty rather easily at Carondelet that year. Mitty went on to win the D2 state championship that season.
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One interesting aspect seems to be that most Open-potential teams have upgraded their schedules, and are playing more teams at their level in the past. The reason might be that before the new system, teams were hoping they wouldn't go Open and would drop down to the lower divisions, and wanted a good record so they could get a top seed in case they did drop down.
But now, there's no point in amassing a good record against bad teams, because the committee has shown it recognizes such maneuvers, and the top 24 teams are all going to be Open or D1. So Plan B is to play a ton of good teams and hope to have enough losses to be number 25 and the top seed in D2, or alternately beat those good teams and earn a good seed in D1.
The Open, of course, looks like a two-team race between Mitty and SMS with Pinewood hovering right behind, but D1 will be wide-open and very, very competitive. (As will D2 and on down, for that matter -- no more will any team coast through NorCals ...)
The issue for the committee this year is making sure to dig into schedules, and realizing that a team with nine losses against Mitty, SMS, O'Dowd, and other quality opponents is a lot better than a team with three losses that played no one.
But now, there's no point in amassing a good record against bad teams, because the committee has shown it recognizes such maneuvers, and the top 24 teams are all going to be Open or D1. So Plan B is to play a ton of good teams and hope to have enough losses to be number 25 and the top seed in D2, or alternately beat those good teams and earn a good seed in D1.
The Open, of course, looks like a two-team race between Mitty and SMS with Pinewood hovering right behind, but D1 will be wide-open and very, very competitive. (As will D2 and on down, for that matter -- no more will any team coast through NorCals ...)
The issue for the committee this year is making sure to dig into schedules, and realizing that a team with nine losses against Mitty, SMS, O'Dowd, and other quality opponents is a lot better than a team with three losses that played no one.
True. But you and I both know the politics and all that goes on with preseason ranking teams, playoff seeding, coaching ( or lack there of) and the ridiculous thought of intentionally tanking. I will never understand scared coaching. The way I view sports and competition is why fear anything, anyone, or any circumstance, that doesn't present a life threatening situation. But the viewpoint of too many is a focus on worrying about others, instead of putting the focus on self/ team improvement and a personal goal line. IMO there is and never has been a whole lot that separates the top 20 (young girl) teams in California or the nation for that matter. Sure a few are a little better, but upsets can happen. But probably not going to happen with low expectations and scared coaching. Or from a team that hasn't put the focus on individual and team improvement. It's never been rocket science. It's leadership and accountability. Some just fearlessly aim a little higher, give, and expect a little more.
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I'm not sure how much politics goes into the CIF committee rankings on girls' basketball. Now with football and boys' basketball, maybe, but not that many people care that much about girls' basketball, so I don't know if any pressure is applied (and for that matter, I don't know how it would be applied, even for football).
But as long as CIF awards banners for state championships and not for participation in the Open, and as long as players and coaches are honored for winning state championships in their communities and by the media and not for Open participation, there will be an incentive to stay out of the Open. I think that's especially true this year given the fact that Mitty and SMS are in the top ten nationally, and no other NorCal team is even close to being considered for the top 25.
In a big game, realistically, what are the odds of a team pulling off a Pinewood-like upset in NorCals? The chance is there, of course, but a win would involve a lot of luck to go along with skill, and I think most people would rather not rely on luck to achieve success.
But as long as CIF awards banners for state championships and not for participation in the Open, and as long as players and coaches are honored for winning state championships in their communities and by the media and not for Open participation, there will be an incentive to stay out of the Open. I think that's especially true this year given the fact that Mitty and SMS are in the top ten nationally, and no other NorCal team is even close to being considered for the top 25.
In a big game, realistically, what are the odds of a team pulling off a Pinewood-like upset in NorCals? The chance is there, of course, but a win would involve a lot of luck to go along with skill, and I think most people would rather not rely on luck to achieve success.
I think luck has very little (in comparison to preparation, effort, and expectation) to do with pulling off an upset. Especially in girls basketball. Where I think you need luck is to just be lucky enough to avoid injuries. I would be willing to bet Pinewood was well prepared and well coached when they pulled off their upset. SMS had been on quite a tear leading into that game and may have been over confident. And the proper adjustments probably were not made. That again(Pinewood) was leadership and accountability from the top down. And a team that most likely improved from November to March.
Maybe it's just me, but I never have viewed many ( if any) girl teams as unbeatable. And I never thought any team was so great that other quality teams should just throw the towel in before tip off. I think any top 20 team given the right circumstance (leadership and accountability) could upset a team that is better than they are. Obviously the odds favor the so call better team, that's why it would be called an upset.
I would agree an upset is possible, but luck cannot be discounted in any game, or anything in life. In that particular game, Pinewood shot 50% from three-point distance, and of course Pinewood and everyone else would like to do that every game -- but they don't, because some nights the shots drop and some nights they don't. No one, not even Steph Curry, can control that, and if you want to call it something else aside from luck, that's fine, but it's still a random factor out of everyone's control. And that game was played at Delta College, not SMS -- what if Delta College had had a home game that night, and the game was at SMS? That's another factor out of anyone's control.
The bottom line that talent is the most important factor in winning games. It's not the only factor, and can be negated by other issues, but it would take a lot of things, some random and some not, to fall into place for the 17th best team in NorCal to somehow beat Mitty or SMS.
The bottom line that talent is the most important factor in winning games. It's not the only factor, and can be negated by other issues, but it would take a lot of things, some random and some not, to fall into place for the 17th best team in NorCal to somehow beat Mitty or SMS.
And lets remember that Pinewood didn't go on to win the NorCal open.. So like Clay stated, despite it being the most memorable game of that bracket, Pinewood went home with no banner to hang..
What is the issue with having one state champion? (besides decreased revenues)
At the very least they should not call division 2-5 "State Champions".
The teams that have legitimate complaints were the division 4 or 5 schools competing East Side Prep/Pinewood, etc pre-open. Those teams are still going to be heavy underdogs. Winning division 5 "State Title" this season means that you were the 61st best team in northern California.
A pre-open division state title meant something. You were the best school with a similar enrollment. Whether you were the best team in the state was another conversation. Now we know teams below division 1 are not remotely close to being considered the best team in the state.
If you are not ELITE, a california state championship is not for you.
One State. One Champion.
At the very least they should not call division 2-5 "State Champions".
The teams that have legitimate complaints were the division 4 or 5 schools competing East Side Prep/Pinewood, etc pre-open. Those teams are still going to be heavy underdogs. Winning division 5 "State Title" this season means that you were the 61st best team in northern California.
A pre-open division state title meant something. You were the best school with a similar enrollment. Whether you were the best team in the state was another conversation. Now we know teams below division 1 are not remotely close to being considered the best team in the state.
If you are not ELITE, a california state championship is not for you.
One State. One Champion.
All in all, I agree with you ... the Open champ is the state champ. But you can't sell division championship games to television.
As for the private schools, unless you divide the private schools into divisions, it is simply unfair. Playoffs do matter, short of a state championship, and to say Bishop O'Dowd and Bentley should be first-round opponents in the NCS Private Division would be disastrous.
And of course, if you have a private school side and public school side, each with divisions, it's even worse.
Sadly, by the way, most states are worse than California. In Arizona, for example, each "state champion" wins a 16-team bracket to claim that title. In Florida, with many fewer high schools, there are nine divisions, plus a couple private school offshoots.
As for the private schools, unless you divide the private schools into divisions, it is simply unfair. Playoffs do matter, short of a state championship, and to say Bishop O'Dowd and Bentley should be first-round opponents in the NCS Private Division would be disastrous.
And of course, if you have a private school side and public school side, each with divisions, it's even worse.
Sadly, by the way, most states are worse than California. In Arizona, for example, each "state champion" wins a 16-team bracket to claim that title. In Florida, with many fewer high schools, there are nine divisions, plus a couple private school offshoots.
No. CA is much too large. It's almost a separate nation unto itself. There are vast enrollment disparities. Not to mention the public vs. private issue.
So wait, i wanna wrap my brain around this one...If I didn't play a Division I sport in college, the title at the end of the season isn't a national championship but just a championship because it wasn't D1? Even better analogy, is a lightweight boxing championship less than a middle weight, light heavy weight, or heavyweight title? Clay, when Campo or Acalanes won their state championships...errr...championships were they nothing or didn't count because it wasn't D1 (pre open)?
Just because you're not in the "open" division doesn't mean it doesn't count...or means any less. I'm not a everyone gets a prize kind of guy, but in this case...I think there's the exception.
Those 2 statements could not be more true. I liked way back when, when you could opt up above your enrollment, but not below it. It made it more clear who wanted the challenge of D1 and who didn't. Obviously, all the D1 schools that got the best teams in their bracket complained about it.. and yet Berkeley (who was always in the mix) has probably still won a majority since then too..
Easy to talk about now because its fresh (or somewhat fresh) in our memories, but it'll be interesting to see in 20 years, if some banners will carry more weight than others when people look at them in a gym.
It's interesting. After we won our first state title at Campo (we got to the game by horseback), we asked the girls to decide whether to opt up or stay at D4. They voted for D4, and the convincing argument was that in 20 years, who would know the difference?
At Acalanes, we were good, but we were really lucky too. The banner's on the wall, though ...
And that said, it was really hard every time (and just as hard when we lost in the state title game, and almost as hard losing in the NorCal finals). It's an achievement to get through that grind, because regardless of division, even in the new format, there aren't going to be very many weak teams.
I liked opting up, too, but I thought it should have been you could only opt to D1 (now make it Open). There were teams opting out of D4 to stay away from Campo (though it took longer to do it then because you had to go down to Western Union and send a telegram).
At Acalanes, we were good, but we were really lucky too. The banner's on the wall, though ...
And that said, it was really hard every time (and just as hard when we lost in the state title game, and almost as hard losing in the NorCal finals). It's an achievement to get through that grind, because regardless of division, even in the new format, there aren't going to be very many weak teams.
I liked opting up, too, but I thought it should have been you could only opt to D1 (now make it Open). There were teams opting out of D4 to stay away from Campo (though it took longer to do it then because you had to go down to Western Union and send a telegram).
That is very true too.. didn't just happen in D4, but there was definitely some "ducking" in the guise of moving up a division back then. And maybe that was an issue argued for the change.. maybe these things aren't as fresh in my memory as I tell myself..
BTW, wanted to clarify that just because I agreed with 2 sentences that "da real" said, I do not support the overall message of one champion. Won't work, ever, for many reasons.
But for me, some championships do carry more weight than others, and that is true for the "opt-up" era, the "true enrollment" era, and the "open" era (and will be true for the "competitive equity" era).
So unless you are bball nerds like us, and are capable of looking at specific years, specific divisions, specific matchups, etc, to compare the difficulty or whatever of each state title, then just enjoy them for what they are. We tend to overthink it, I'm sure there are a ton of old college football players still telling youngsters that the AP voters kept them from being national champions, but guess what.. its sports, life goes on. I still look forward to watching all 6 divisions of state championship games and the emotion it brings out of the players, coaches, and fans across the board.
But for me, some championships do carry more weight than others, and that is true for the "opt-up" era, the "true enrollment" era, and the "open" era (and will be true for the "competitive equity" era).
So unless you are bball nerds like us, and are capable of looking at specific years, specific divisions, specific matchups, etc, to compare the difficulty or whatever of each state title, then just enjoy them for what they are. We tend to overthink it, I'm sure there are a ton of old college football players still telling youngsters that the AP voters kept them from being national champions, but guess what.. its sports, life goes on. I still look forward to watching all 6 divisions of state championship games and the emotion it brings out of the players, coaches, and fans across the board.
Like you said you can't rely on luck and that is the point of focus. Better to prepare the best you can than throw the towel in before tip off. Especially in the girls game which is often wide open and up for grabs when the fear factor is out of the picture IMO. But scared coaches and trained to be scared children would rather tank and become a false champion at a lower level with easier competition/ challenges. Some just are not taught the value of putting the extra work in. And focusing on the things you can do when you put the work in and aim for the top. As opposed to making an excuse to be average. Or to pass the blame instead of making or becoming the difference.
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For example, eastside college prep is back to back division 5 state champions and they didn't win their league either year. They haven't best pinewood once in the last two seasons.
Pinewood was the better division 5 team and they do not have a banner. That is a problem. The post open system is broken.
The current system is even worse because the winner of d-5 this year will be an underachieving larger school who also didn't win their league. What is the point of awarding the 61st best team in norcal a state championship banner? Whats the point of awarding the 25th, 37th, 49th best teams in norcal a state banner?
If they created the divisions BEFORE the season, it would make more sense to award banners.
The current system awards teams who are not good enough to play with the best teams in northern California.
Pinewood was the better division 5 team and they do not have a banner. That is a problem. The post open system is broken.
The current system is even worse because the winner of d-5 this year will be an underachieving larger school who also didn't win their league. What is the point of awarding the 61st best team in norcal a state championship banner? Whats the point of awarding the 25th, 37th, 49th best teams in norcal a state banner?
If they created the divisions BEFORE the season, it would make more sense to award banners.
The current system awards teams who are not good enough to play with the best teams in northern California.
It's not the same. We know that the winner of ncaa d-2 or d-3 aren t the best teams in the country. The meaning of a championships to me means that you are the best. Inherently a d2, d3, naia championship is not the same.
The boxing analogy is a poor one for obvious reasons. However, if you are a fan of the sweet science you know that WITHIN a weight division, all world championships are not created equal.
And i dont have an issue with pre open state titles.
d'a real
SJS has the best system for moving teams up division to level the playing field. When a team wins 3 section championship they are automatically move up to the next division. This rule right here is the best rule and should be followed by all sections. IF A TEAM IS PLACE IN THE OPEN THE NEXT 2 YEARS WILL HAVE TO PLAY IN D1 NO MATTER WHAT DIVISION THEY COME FROM.
CCS IS PROBABLY THE WORST SECTION ON MOVE TEAMS UP. THAT'S WHY TEAMS LIKE PINEWOOD AND ESCP HAVE A CHANCE EVERY YEAR TO WIN A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP. THEN THEY HELP THERE TEAMS GET A HIGH SEED IN THE PLAYOFF BY HAVING A OPEN DIVISION WHICH SOME TEANS DON'T EVEN BELONG.
SJS has the best system for moving teams up division to level the playing field. When a team wins 3 section championship they are automatically move up to the next division. This rule right here is the best rule and should be followed by all sections. IF A TEAM IS PLACE IN THE OPEN THE NEXT 2 YEARS WILL HAVE TO PLAY IN D1 NO MATTER WHAT DIVISION THEY COME FROM.
CCS IS PROBABLY THE WORST SECTION ON MOVE TEAMS UP. THAT'S WHY TEAMS LIKE PINEWOOD AND ESCP HAVE A CHANCE EVERY YEAR TO WIN A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP. THEN THEY HELP THERE TEAMS GET A HIGH SEED IN THE PLAYOFF BY HAVING A OPEN DIVISION WHICH SOME TEANS DON'T EVEN BELONG.
Every system has flaws ...
In SJS, Brookside is still D1, and I'm not sure that's where they belong this year. (They might -- we'll find out Thursday when we play them.)
And SJS divides its section divisions by enrollment, after a complicated process in which specific leagues are awarded three or four postseason slots prior to the season, so even if a particular league deserves four spots, it can only get three. And then, after getting the 64 teams (I think that's the number), they basically rank them by enrollment to determine which team goes where. (There are several teams designated for particular divisions due to past achievements, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean this year's team belongs in that division.)
I just think enrollment is a shaky way to determine divisional assignment at that point, as strength of schedule, overall record, etc., are probably better predictors given an entire season's worth of results are on hand.
In SJS, Brookside is still D1, and I'm not sure that's where they belong this year. (They might -- we'll find out Thursday when we play them.)
And SJS divides its section divisions by enrollment, after a complicated process in which specific leagues are awarded three or four postseason slots prior to the season, so even if a particular league deserves four spots, it can only get three. And then, after getting the 64 teams (I think that's the number), they basically rank them by enrollment to determine which team goes where. (There are several teams designated for particular divisions due to past achievements, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean this year's team belongs in that division.)
I just think enrollment is a shaky way to determine divisional assignment at that point, as strength of schedule, overall record, etc., are probably better predictors given an entire season's worth of results are on hand.
That may be true. But with no disrespect to Presentation the unfortunate part was there was no rematch featuring Carondelet vs Mitty.
As I mentioned Carondelet easily handled Mitty at Carondelet that year for 3 and a half quarters before taking the foot off the gas and letting what could have been a twenty plus victory end up being about a 5 point Carondelet win.
I would have put my money on Mitty in the rematch just because of the way they were able or allowed to build confidence at the end of the game. IMO confidence (which can be fickle in the girls game IMO) can make all the difference in the world. That is why some coaches (not to mention any names or club teams) will often blow teams out to obtain the psychological edge, which again can be big in the high school girls game. Players tend to adopt the confidence and personality of their coach. And they get intimidated by some opposing coaches for those same reasons. So if a coach is easy going and/ or passive, or less confident, or aggressive, fearless and confident,the team/players tends to be that way also. Of course I could be wrong. But that has been my observation with regards to the success patterns I have witnessed in high school girls basketball.
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That part I definitely agree with.
This part not so much, although each situation and ensuing motives could differ, so who knows.
But I agree with Clay, having coached both boys and girls, it doesn't just apply to the girls game at all
Because generally speaking girls run off emotions and guys a bit more rational and logical IMO and IME. Girls tend to have less swag for the most part IMO. And because girls are so emotionally driven their confidence wavers back and forth a bit more with regards to playing sports IMO. Girls tend to let things bother them a bit easier than most guys do IMO. So with that said, I think you have to take the fact that there is a difference into account and not coach girls as you would coach boys and visa versa. Not that all girls or all boys are the same. So you also have to take each circumstance into account.
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My sense would be that, yes, girls are more emotional, but boys are more immature, so it sort of balances out -- and of course it depends on your particular team and group.
I think it also comes to coaching, as players will reflect, to some extent, the mood and approach of their coaches.
I think it also comes to coaching, as players will reflect, to some extent, the mood and approach of their coaches.
