NCS OPEN??? YES PLEASE!!

[northbaybbguru]

I was chatting with the CN AD at last nights football game and he said the NCS is discussing an OPEN section for boys and girls basketball similar to the CCS.

The vote for it is coming up soon.
The NBL just had a meeting (this week) to discuss how it would vote on the proposal.

The OPEN section if approved would go into effect this next basketball season.

YES! YES! YES! Please ...fingers crossed.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

Great news! But my question is would they follow the CCS guidelines in letting all open participants to bump others after first round loses, similar to CCS? I will say it's a start in the right direction!

 

[ClayK]

Credit to Doug Sakamoto of Mission San Jose for pushing this forward -- and the devil will be in the details. I hope the NCS Open mirrors the CCS model, but you never know. A committee would undoubtedly make the decision.

Also note NCS already has Open divisions in football and water polo (and maybe more), so it's possible those will be the models.

 

[dbrown68]

Credit to Doug Sakamoto of Mission San Jose for pushing this forward -- and the devil will be in the details. I hope the NCS Open mirrors the CCS model, but you never know. A committee would undoubtedly make the decision.

Also note NCS already has Open divisions in football and water polo (and maybe more), so it's possible those will be the models.

Clay (or other experts),
for newbies like me, can you explain what this Open Division means, and what are its benefits? Thanks in advance!

 

[LBJ6]

Clay (or other experts),
for newbies like me, can you explain what this Open Division means, and what are its benefits? Thanks in advance!

Takes the best 8 teams in all of NCS and puts them in an open bracket ( which I assume gives them an auto bid into the state tourney) everything else stays the same. Just gives other schools a better shot at winning their respective section title. Thats a very dry summary.

 

[observer22]

And for fans that aren’t tied to 1 team, a chance to see the best teams play each other instead of being in 5 different divisions.

 

[northbaybbguru]

And for the Public vs Private people.... this will most likely take 6 or 7 privates out of sections every yr. Even things up for the publics...

 

[northbaybbguru]

Im actually embarrassed to even bring this up being a North Bay guy and all..

The NBL voted 11-1 AGAINST... CN was the only school to vote for it.

So that means that the El Molinos, Healdsburgs, Elsie Allens, Rancho Cotates. Maria Carrillos and Windsors of the world voted against it. EVEN MONTGOMERY WHO HAS BEEN ELIMINATED BY MM OR ODOWD THE LAST 4 (?) YRS (in sections) VOTED AGAINST IT.
I honestly don't think they understood what they were voting on...and definitely DID NOT get input from their coaches as I called a couple of coaches and asked WTF was going on with their vote and they told me they were never approached by their ADs for input.

Its SHOCKINGLY stupid by the NBL AD's


My point???....

Im not conviced this is a done deal based on the NBL voting....(Im shocked I just wrote that)

 

[ClayK]

It is pretty amazing, but it's much more critical for D1 schools like Mission San Jose, because the present system just keeps moving teams up until they get to D1. At that point, the large public schools are screwed because they have to compete with every elite public and private school just to get out of NCS and into NorCals -- much less win NCS.

The lower division schools, like Montgomery, can just wait until the power schools move up, and what do they care about D1?

 

[Streak One]

Great point on bigger D1 schools being a benefactor of the Open format. They are stuck by enrollment and the NCS and SJS are trying to make D1 a defacto Open.

I think an Open Division is a great idea (was against the CCS one at the start but was proven wrong).

Why wouldn't a section want to showcase the best their sport has to offer in a given year and then open up chances for other schools to reach the finals?

I think schools feel like they will be left out in the cold with all of the focus on open, but guess what: you kind of already are when you get bounced handily in the first or second round.

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

Great point on bigger D1 schools being a benefactor of the Open format. They are stuck by enrollment and the NCS and SJS are trying to make D1 a defacto Open.

I think an Open Division is a great idea (was against the CCS one at the start but was proven wrong).

Why wouldn't a section want to showcase the best their sport has to offer in a given year and then open up chances for other schools to reach the finals?

I think schools feel like they will be left out in the cold with all of the focus on open, but guess what: you kind of already are when you get bounced handily in the first or second round.

Why "open up chances for other schools to reach the finals?" They all have a chance at the start of each season. And I think a section gets to showcase their talent when they send the deserving teams on to the State level.

I just disagree with large schools getting to move down and compete against schools with a half to a third of the large school's enrollment. I also don't think small schools should have to be punished by being pushed up to compete against much larger schools just because that program has put in so much time and EARNED so much success. Hanford and Yosemite are two small public schools (D3 and D4) that had tremendous success for years. Then competitive equity comes along and they get shoved to D1 and D2 and to this day are still stuck there. Neither one has won a section title in the past 5+ years. How is that fair? Meanwhile, underachieving schools with 2300-2600 kids drop down to D3 (Hanford's actual divisional placement) and win section titles. That's completely backwards if you ask me.

 

[ClayK]

Good point about large schools moving down ... but a school like Mission San Jose -- to name just one -- will always be good enough to stay in D1. Which means they must compete with every elite private, charter and magnet school to even have a chance to get to NorCals.

So MSJ could have its best team in a decade, or in 20 years, and still finish behind Salesian, BOD, Carondelet and St. Joseph Notre Dame in NCS. OK, two get moved to the Open in NorCals, but there are other quality D1 public school programs that will always get left out.

Again, there is no perfect system. Craig's point about big schools dropping down is a good one, which is why flexibility is key. So that underachieving big school program finally has a pretty good team and does well in D3. Ideally, the system would then pop them right back up to D1, but now at least they'd have a foundation of success to build on. Getting blasted by 40 in the opening round of the playoffs against far superior opposition makes it pretty hard to get girls at a school to play basketball instead of soccer, water polo or lacrosse.

I don't begrudge a long-suffering large school one year of success, but the system should react to that year, and quickly move the big school back up, and quickly move schools like Yosemite and Brookside Christian back down.

 

[straightline50]

If the goal is competitive equity and if enrollment numbers do not matter, then start competitive equity at the section level. 24 teams qualify for state and those would be the 8 in the open and the 16 in D1 at the section level. D2 through D6 would not qualify for state. Makes selecting the state tournament pretty easy.

 

[Streak One]

Why "open up chances for other schools to reach the finals?" They all have a chance at the start of each season. And I think a section gets to showcase their talent when they send the deserving teams on to the State level.

I just disagree with large schools getting to move down and compete against schools with a half to a third of the large school's enrollment. I also don't think small schools should have to be punished by being pushed up to compete against much larger schools just because that program has put in so much time and EARNED so much success. Hanford and Yosemite are two small public schools (D3 and D4) that had tremendous success for years. Then competitive equity comes along and they get shoved to D1 and D2 and to this day are still stuck there. Neither one has won a section title in the past 5+ years. How is that fair? Meanwhile, underachieving schools with 2300-2600 kids drop down to D3 (Hanford's actual divisional placement) and win section titles. That's completely backwards if you ask me.

I get your point, but I don't think everyone is starting from the same point. I'm in favor of a system that groups teams together that have the same goal. I don't like large schools moving down or forcing up small schools that have success, but I do think an Open Division or separation is a positive step for this current messed up system

 

[CW Golden Eagles]

I get your point, but I don't think everyone is starting from the same point. I'm in favor of a system that groups teams together that have the same goal. I don't like large schools moving down or forcing up small schools that have success, but I do think an Open Division or separation is a positive step for this current messed up system

How many that run a year round program are falling short of being competitive? In our section, those that are putting in the investment of running a year round program are the ones competitive year in, year out. When there is a coaching change and the new coach stops working, that program falls off. On the contrary, I have seen new coaches come into losing programs and turn it around simply by putting in the time. We all have different resources and different levels of battles we have to fight--we all have hurdles, just different hurdles. But just using our section as my perspective...I don't see anyone struggling to compete that is putting in the time with their kids and program. Doesn't mean they will all win championships, nor should they. That isn't the real world. But they are competitive, their kids get better, and they raise funds for their programs.

When a program in a school claims they can't win because they are at a huge disadvantage and then drop a division or two, but another athletic program of the same gender in the same school wins league or wins the section---was it really due to unfair circumstances or is that coach not putting in the necessary time for their kids and program?

Coaching basketball has become a year round commitment to be successful. Love that or hate that, it is what it is. I have seen coaches in very low income areas with little to no parental support and little to no administrative support work tirelessly for their kids. These coaches have elevated their programs to a level where they are competitive, field all levels, take their kids to tournaments, and made huge impacts in the lives of kids. And if those coaches stick around long enough, they will remain competitive and may find themselves kicking open the door of a league or section championship some day. Equally, I have seen coaches with all the resources in the world put in little to no time with their kids and consistently underachieve. Too many schools are hiring coaches that aren't qualified or ready to run a program. They have never been an understudy to a successful program and have little to no head coaching experience. The turnover rate makes it very difficult for sustained success. The long hours, poor pay, crazy parents, unsupportive administration, etc, etc all takes its toll.

We are often quick to make excuses for why things can't be done instead of rolling up our sleeves and doing the best we can. Not every team will be a championship team. I just hate seeing teams penalized for working hard and others rewarded for not putting in time with their kids. It's the complete opposite message of what we all tell our teams at the start of the season.

 

[northbaybbguru]

Credit to Doug Sakamoto of Mission San Jose for pushing this forward -- and the devil will be in the details. I hope the NCS Open mirrors the CCS model, but you never know. A committee would undoubtedly make the decision.

Also note NCS already has Open divisions in football and water polo (and maybe more), so it's possible those will be the models.

Clay...
I don't suppose you can get a copy of the tentative proposal and post it can you?

 

[ClayK]

A fair point ... but at least in NCS before teams got moved up, you could put in all the time you wanted to still not be competitive with the top teams in your bracket. And with teams moving to D1, that was totally unfair to the Mission San Jose-type schools.

Here's another thing to consider, though. I know of at least one large East Bay school that is D2 but in reality has a D5 population of potential athletes to draw on. The registration is 80% Hispanic, I've heard, and a significant majority of those kids simply do not participate in extracurricular activities (more so on the girls' side as well). So the raw attendance number doesn't really tell you much in this case, because you can work as hard as you want, and if your pool of available athletes is 1/5th the size of the pool of athletes in your league/division, you're in big trouble.

Again, really, the devil is in the details. The public/private split: No one so far has really given me a satisfactory answer about what to do with public charter schools that can and must recruit students to survive, and magnet schools that can draw athletes from an entire school district. Maybe there is a good answer but I've yet to hear it ...

 

[ClayK]

This is approved for 18-19 by the Sports Advisory Committee:

1. Open Division competition will be implemented starting with the 2018-2019 school year.

2. In the sport of Basketball, in addition to the approved 5 Divisions of competition, an eight-team Open Division bracket will be developed. The bracket will be developed as follows:

a. The Open Division will be limited to eight teams;

b. The appointed NCS At-Large and Seeding Committee, prior to the development of any of the other division brackets, selects subjectively the top eight strongest teams within the CIF-North Coast Section based on the currently established at-large and seeding criteria with the following condition: All teams selected for the Open Division will earn automatic berths in the Northern California Regional Tournament (NorCals).

c. The Open Division bracket will be a pure seed #1 vs. #8, #2 vs. #7, #3 vs. #6, and #4 vs. #5.

d. Assignment of games will be according to the same established policy used in the other 5 Division brackets and approved by the NCS Board of Managers.

e. Competition will be conducted as follows (Dates of play may be at a later date if the proposal is approved):

i. Starting on the quarter-finals date(s) of Division 1 thru Division 5 and playing the finals on the same date(s) of Division 1 thru Division 5. 3. This proposal will maintain the 16 team playoff brackets per Division 1 thru Division 5 based on the current enrollment standings with the inclusion of the recently added competitive division criteria.

3. This proposal will maintain the 16 team playoff brackets per Division 1 thru Division 5 based on the current enrollment standings with the inclusion of the recently added competitive division criteria. a. Division 1 thru 5. 16 teams based on meeting the current qualifications. The appointed NCS At-Large and Seeding Committee will seed the qualified teams based on the currently established at-large and seeding criteria. First round will consist of #1 vs. #16, #2 vs. #15, #3 vs. #14, #4 vs. #13, #5 vs. #12, #6, vs. #11, #7 vs. #10, and #8 vs. #9. If there are not enough qualified teams, then the top seed(s) will receive a first round-bye.

 

[colhenrylives]

Here are six automatics: O'Dowd, Newman, Carondelet, Miramonte, Salesian, St. Joseph's. Heritage might be added as well. A couple of sacrificial lambs will be needed to fill out the bracket, very similar to the CCS Open situation.

 

[northbaybbguru]

BOD (D2)
CLET (D1)
CN (D3)
HERITAGE (D1)
MM (D2)
SALESIAN (D3)
ST JOES (D3) (moved up)

??? (probably another D1 team)...any ideas?

so....
2 from D1
2 from D2
3 from D3
1 from ???

I'll tell you what all the lower divisions would be WIDE FRIGN OPEN!!!
And the OPEN division is a coin flip also.

I love it!!

 

[northbaybbguru]

This is approved for 18-19 by the Sports Advisory Committee:

1. Open Division competition will be implemented starting with the 2018-2019 school year.

2. In the sport of Basketball, in addition to the approved 5 Divisions of competition, an eight-team Open Division bracket will be developed. The bracket will be developed as follows:

a. The Open Division will be limited to eight teams;

b. The appointed NCS At-Large and Seeding Committee, prior to the development of any of the other division brackets, selects subjectively the top eight strongest teams within the CIF-North Coast Section based on the currently established at-large and seeding criteria with the following condition: All teams selected for the Open Division will earn automatic berths in the Northern California Regional Tournament (NorCals).

c. The Open Division bracket will be a pure seed #1 vs. #8, #2 vs. #7, #3 vs. #6, and #4 vs. #5.

d. Assignment of games will be according to the same established policy used in the other 5 Division brackets and approved by the NCS Board of Managers.

e. Competition will be conducted as follows (Dates of play may be at a later date if the proposal is approved):

i. Starting on the quarter-finals date(s) of Division 1 thru Division 5 and playing the finals on the same date(s) of Division 1 thru Division 5. 3. This proposal will maintain the 16 team playoff brackets per Division 1 thru Division 5 based on the current enrollment standings with the inclusion of the recently added competitive division criteria.

3. This proposal will maintain the 16 team playoff brackets per Division 1 thru Division 5 based on the current enrollment standings with the inclusion of the recently added competitive division criteria. a. Division 1 thru 5. 16 teams based on meeting the current qualifications. The appointed NCS At-Large and Seeding Committee will seed the qualified teams based on the currently established at-large and seeding criteria. First round will consist of #1 vs. #16, #2 vs. #15, #3 vs. #14, #4 vs. #13, #5 vs. #12, #6, vs. #11, #7 vs. #10, and #8 vs. #9. If there are not enough qualified teams, then the top seed(s) will receive a first round-bye.

I hope after they play the final 4 in the OPEN that they have a 3rd place game also along with the championship game. That way there is a seeding pecking order for the Norcal OPEN in case they want to take a 3rd team from the NCS. NOT leave it up to the NCS Commissioner to decide who the 3rd team would be.

 

[colhenrylives]

BOD (D2)
CLET (D1)
CN (D3)
HERITAGE (D1)
MM (D2)
SALESIAN (D3)
ST JOES (D3) (moved up)

??? (probably another D1 team)...any ideas?

so....
2 from D1
2 from D2
3 from D3
1 from ???

I'll tell you what all the lower divisions would be WIDE FRIGN OPEN!!!
And the OPEN division is a coin flip also.

I love it!!

Let's just call the lower divisions what they really are: Consolation divisions.

 

[OnBall8]

I hope after they play the final 4 in the OPEN that they have a 3rd place game also along with the championship game. That way there is a seeding pecking order for the Norcal OPEN in case they want to take a 3rd team from the NCS. NOT leave it up to the NCS Commissioner to decide who the 3rd team would be.

Totally agree.. then people (we know who one will be) will come on here and accuse a team of tanking that 3rd place game when the winner goes NorCal Open.

 

[LBJ6]

My rumor is telling me this motion did not pass

 

[northbaybbguru]

F

My rumor is telling me this motion did not pass

%$&*% !!!

I hope this is wrong.....yeesh

 

[straightline50]

What rumor are we referring to again? Open division in NCS? I assumed it had passed.

 

[northbaybbguru]

What rumor are we referring to again? Open division in NCS? I assumed it had passed.

On the boys thread they are saying it passed

 

[northbaybbguru]

do we have 100% confirmation either way? Clayk?

 

[bones40]

Will these open games be played at a neutral site like CCS does it no team should be playing at
home in a open division format

 

[ClayK]

The meeting was last Friday, it appears, but the minutes haven't been posted on the NCS web site. I emailed Bri Niemi and will presumably know more at some point today.

As for many of the details, the proposal doesn't address much beyond the general concept. The NCS staff would make decisions, and barring a major change in direction, I would expect the first two rounds to be at home sites, with the finals at a neutral site. It's hard to figure out how a neutral site would work in the first couple rounds, given the geography of the section. The obvious issue would be something like Cardinal Newman-Heritage -- where could you find a site roughly equidistant from both? -- but even something like Carondelet at Salesian, given traffic, would be a problem. (And St. Mary's College, in the new calendar, will be in the middle of its season ...)

Presumably, all Open teams would automatically go to NorCals. I would guess, based on nothing, that it would be single-elimination with no additional games for first-round losers, though there might be enough money involved to get NCS to change its mind.

 

[bones40]

Called NCS office this morning the vote did not pass

 

[LBJ6]

Called NCS office this morning the vote did not pass

I tried to break the news for you guys