SFL Bias?

[Macallan]

As we approach Section Semi-Finals in the SJS, the talk of calpreps.com and an SFL bias has come up. Additionally, a team that went 1-4 in the SFL made the playoffs. I did a little digging.

All five SFL teams not only won playoff games, but all five are in the section semi-finals. Only two of the five are projected to lose in the semi-finals. And to be fair, one of those predicted losses is to another SFL team, so really, one team (Manteca is projected to win over Rocklin, which, in and of itself, is up for conversation/debate). IMO, it's mighty impressive. Furthermore, the aforementioned 1-4 league team beat a previously undefeated team on the road in the second round.

Breaking things down around the section, the Valley Oak League is in second place with three teams in the section semi-finals (Kimball in D IV, Manteca in D II, and Central Catholic in D I), and tied with the VOL is the Southern (Orestimba D VI, Le Grand D VII and Ripon Christian D VII). Capital, Mother Lode, and Trans Valley have 2 team each in the semi-finals, and a handful of other leagues have one. And six of the 24 leagues in the SJS (which includes "Freelance") do not have a team in the semi-finals. Having five teams in the semi-finals, all in D I or D II, is impressive, IMO.

Then I took a peek at the only SFL team to not make the playoffs. That team beat a team with a playoff win, in D II, another team in the D III semi-finals, and a third team that is in the semi-finals in D II in the northern section.

Whether there is a calpreps.com bias for the SFL or not, such a bias seems warranted, for this year at least. What are your thoughts?

 

[Cal 14]

As we approach Section Semi-Finals in the SJS, the talk of calpreps.com and an SFL bias has come up. Additionally, a team that went 1-4 in the SFL made the playoffs. I did a little digging.

All five SFL teams not only won playoff games, but all five are in the section semi-finals. Only two of the five are projected to lose in the semi-finals. And to be fair, one of those predicted losses is to another SFL team, so really, one team (Manteca is projected to win over Rocklin, which, in and of itself, is up for conversation/debate). IMO, it's mighty impressive. Furthermore, the aforementioned 1-4 league team beat a previously undefeated team on the road in the second round.

Breaking things down around the section, the Valley Oak League is in second place with three teams in the section semi-finals (Kimball in D IV, Manteca in D II, and Central Catholic in D I), and tied with the VOL is the Southern (Orestimba D VI, Le Grand D VII and Ripon Christian D VII). Capital, Mother Lode, and Trans Valley have 2 team each in the semi-finals, and a handful of other leagues have one. And six of the 24 leagues in the SJS (which includes "Freelance") do not have a team in the semi-finals. Having five teams in the semi-finals, all in D I or D II, is impressive, IMO.

Then I took a peek at the only SFL team to not make the playoffs. That team beat a team with a playoff win, in D II, another team in the D III semi-finals, and a third team that is in the semi-finals in D II in the northern section.

Whether there is a calpreps.com bias for the SFL or not, such a bias seems warranted, for this year at least. What are your thoughts?

SFL teams have done nothing in the playoffs that they weren't expected to do. Those teams made huge jumps in this week's rankings despite this. As an example, Rocklin jumped 6 spots for beating Elk Grove. Conversely, Clayton Valley Charter dropped 6 spots, despite winning their playoff game and having beaten the same Crusader team just a few weeks ago. SFL teams also made jumps in the Cal-Hi rankings.

Even the Granite Bay win over Downey was predicted by Calpreps.

So, yes, I think there are some that have gotten a little over-excited about this. The majority of their playoff opponents so far were never really threats in the first place.

 

[Cal 14]

As we approach Section Semi-Finals in the SJS, the talk of calpreps.com and an SFL bias has come up. Additionally, a team that went 1-4 in the SFL made the playoffs. I did a little digging.

All five SFL teams not only won playoff games, but all five are in the section semi-finals. Only two of the five are projected to lose in the semi-finals. And to be fair, one of those predicted losses is to another SFL team, so really, one team (Manteca is projected to win over Rocklin, which, in and of itself, is up for conversation/debate). IMO, it's mighty impressive. Furthermore, the aforementioned 1-4 league team beat a previously undefeated team on the road in the second round.

Breaking things down around the section, the Valley Oak League is in second place with three teams in the section semi-finals (Kimball in D IV, Manteca in D II, and Central Catholic in D I), and tied with the VOL is the Southern (Orestimba D VI, Le Grand D VII and Ripon Christian D VII). Capital, Mother Lode, and Trans Valley have 2 team each in the semi-finals, and a handful of other leagues have one. And six of the 24 leagues in the SJS (which includes "Freelance") do not have a team in the semi-finals. Having five teams in the semi-finals, all in D I or D II, is impressive, IMO.

Then I took a peek at the only SFL team to not make the playoffs. That team beat a team with a playoff win, in D II, another team in the D III semi-finals, and a third team that is in the semi-finals in D II in the northern section.

Whether there is a calpreps.com bias for the SFL or not, such a bias seems warranted, for this year at least. What are your thoughts?

Also, keep in mind that in the Sac area, the SFL was specifically constructed to be the toughest league. It really should be no surprise that it will generally dominate the other leagues head-to-head.

 

[MTsince2004]

Also, keep in mind that in the Sac area, the SFL was specifically constructed to be the toughest league. It really should be no surprise that it will generally dominate the other leagues head-to-head.

I think this is a really important part of the SFL bias that I have been frustrated by.

I will absolutely admit that the SFL is filled with the best top to bottom collection of programs in the Sacramento area. All of the schools are relatively or very affluent and have multi-tiered support for the football program. That's not the bias--that's just socio-economics.

The bias is the "iron sharpens iron" issue. Playing in a tough league is an advantage. The advantage is NOT in wins and losses. It's in the constant feedback on effectiveness. By creating a power league, then excluding teams who could benefit from competing in it, the power league maintains the self-fulfilling prophecy of its supremacy.

I'm not against power leagues. I would just like to see more of a promotion/relegation model in place so that the designation actually allows for teams to build up to and maintain that status in an unbiased manner.

Obviously and with full disclosure, my position is grounded in the SFL's rejection of MT (and "a friend of a friend of a friend" rumors that the Delta will also vote down membership). In the last two months of the season (Sept. 10th through Nov. 11th) Monterey Trail had more non-game Fridays (3) than meaningful games with challenging opponents (2). Tough to sharpen the iron with a soft schedule. Believe it or not, but it is much more psychologically difficult to get a high school team to elevate their game playing against outmatched opponents or not playing at all than it is to keep them focused in a meat grinder of a schedule.

 

[ThunderRam]

SFL teams have done nothing in the playoffs that they weren't expected to do. Those teams made huge jumps in this week's rankings despite this. As an example, Rocklin jumped 6 spots for beating Elk Grove.

Oak Ridge beat EG last week, not Rocklin. The Thunder took care of Jesuit instead.

 

[BigMann08]

The SFL is a great football league (too top heavy in my opinion). With the exception of MT, it houses the best teams in the Sacramento region.

An easy fix to the SFL problem is to create an Open Playoff division, where all of its playoff bound teams must compete without exception. This playoff system can consist of 8 or 12 teams.

This year's Open Could have consisted of:

Open 8 Teams:
Folsom
St Mary's
CC
MT
Del Oro
Rocklin
Oak Ridge
GB

Open 12 teams:
Folsom
St. Mary's
CC
Monterey Trail
Manteca
Turlock
Del Oro
Rocklin
Oak Ridge
Granite Bay
Vacaville
Elk Grove

 

[Cal 14]

Oak Ridge beat EG last week, not Rocklin. The Thunder took care of Jesuit instead.

Yes, I edited mid-way, but apparently not all the way.

Sentiment remains.

Elk Grove got beat by Menlo-Atherton. None of the SFL opponents were especially great.

 

[larry legend33]

The SFL is a great football league (too top heavy in my opinion). With the exception of MT, it houses the best teams in the Sacramento region.

An easy fix to the SFL problem is to create an Open Playoff division, where all of its playoff bound teams must compete without exception. This playoff system can consist of 8 or 12 teams.

This year's Open Could have consisted of:

Open 8 Teams:
Folsom
St Mary's
CC
MT
Del Oro
Rocklin
Oak Ridge
GB

Open 12 teams:
Folsom
St. Mary's
CC
Monterey Trail
Manteca
Turlock
Del Oro
Rocklin
Oak Ridge
Granite Bay
Vacaville
Elk Grove

The SFL is the best league in norcal this year and in most years at least top 2. It’s not even debatable.

 

[BigMann08]

The SFL is the best league in norcal this year and in most years at least top 2. It’s not even debatable.

That’s the consensus across this board. Who is debating that?

 

[larry legend33]

That’s the consensus across this board. Who is debating that?

Somebody was earlier in year. Said the wcal and I was like no way. Not this year.

 

[Cal 14]

Somebody was earlier in year. Said the wcal and I was like no way. Not this year.

No one said that. I said that the SFL teams didn't fare any different against Folsom than the WCAL teams did against Serra.

Really, this is becoming a pattern for you. I suggest you read, re-read, and possibly triple-check just for good measure before responding to people.

 

[ThunderRam]

No one said that. I said that the SFL teams didn't fare any different against Folsom than the WCAL teams did against Serra.

That’s not true though.

Rocklin and Folsom were tied at 0 at half. And the Thunder were a dropped pick 6 from taking a 1 score lead and possibly winning. As it turned out they lost by one score.

No WCAL team fared nearly as well against Serra.

 

[ThunderRam]

Yes, I edited mid-way, but apparently not all the way.

I figured you knew and just had an honest mixup. Happens to me frequently.

 

[RidgeRider]

A lot of whining about geographically adjacent high schools playing good football. I guess that's not fair.

 

[Santa Ball]

The SFL is a great football league (too top heavy in my opinion). With the exception of MT, it houses the best teams in the Sacramento region.

An easy fix to the SFL problem is to create an Open Playoff division, where all of its playoff bound teams must compete without exception. This playoff system can consist of 8 or 12 teams.

This year's Open Could have consisted of:

Open 8 Teams:
Folsom
St Mary's
CC
MT
Del Oro
Rocklin
Oak Ridge
GB

Open 12 teams:
Folsom
St. Mary's
CC
Monterey Trail
Manteca
Turlock
Del Oro
Rocklin
Oak Ridge
Granite Bay
Vacaville
Elk Grove

I would pay for a season pass to a league consisting of your 12 but this would be for playoffs only. What would be the goal of having the open 8,12 above, enrollment be dammed. What is the benefit to these schools, the value add here to the SJS in general, the CIF Playoffs? At first glance, this wreaks of fear.

 

[BigMann08]

A playoff system of this kind creates greater competition, brings more exposure to the section and it settles “who’s the best” on the field.

The quality of SJS football will increase as well.

Del Oro, Manteca, and GB have won a ton of section championships. Their trophy cases are not hurting for hardware…

 

[BigMann08]

A lot of whining about geographically adjacent high schools playing good football. I guess that's not fair.

Whining? No. The top schools should compete with one another.

 

[Santa Ball]

A playoff system of this kind creates greater competition, brings more exposure to the section and it settles “who’s the best” on the field.

The quality of SJS football will increase as well.

Del Oro, Manteca, and GB have won a ton of section championships. Their trophy cases are not hurting for hardware…

The quality would be phenomenal for the open. If that's the goal just have one open playoff. So no one gets the participation trophies anymore cause you sure as hell not improving the quality any SJS football outside the open.

 

[BigMann08]

The quality would be phenomenal for the open. If that's the goal just have one open playoff. So no one gets the participation trophies anymore cause you sure as hell not improving the quality any SJS football outside the open.

The quality of the Open would improve but you’d still have a ton of good programs left to compete in the other divisions.

 

[RidgeRider]

Whining? No. The top schools should compete with one another.

Why? Why would you break up a geographic rivalry league where kids grow up playing with and against each other just so your favorite school can play better teams? That’s selfish. The other leagues should improve. High school has always been about neighborhood rivalries. Why change it? There is zero reason to do it accept if you’re only looking out for a the interest of a specific school.

 

[BigMann08]

Why? Why would you break up a geographic rivalry league where kids grow up playing with and against each other just so your favorite school can play better teams? That’s selfish. The other leagues should improve. High school has always been about neighborhood rivalries. Why change it? There is zero reason to do it accept if you’re only looking out for a the interest of a specific school.

You don’t have to break up the SFL. Keep the league but make the teams compete in SJS -D1 playoffs or form an Open Division.

Teams like GB, DO, and Rocklin shouldn’t e able to hide in the D2 playoffs. If they can play in the big boy league, let them also play in the premier playoff bracket.

 

[MTsince2004]

Why? Why would you break up a geographic rivalry league where kids grow up playing with and against each other just so your favorite school can play better teams? That’s selfish. The other leagues should improve. High school has always been about neighborhood rivalries. Why change it? There is zero reason to do it accept if you’re only looking out for a the interest of a specific school.

I spoke about this in another thread (football only). You could create a power-league structure along the I-80 corridor and one along Hwy 50 and south to Elk Grove. Have A, B, and C-level leagues with relegation and promotion on a two-year cycle. Do the same thing geographically in the south end of the section.

Create an 8-team Open Division for the playoffs, followed by the other divisions. As teams lose in each round of the open, let them drop down into the brackets of D1 and D2 at the quarter-final and semi-final rounds. The loser of the Open Championship game automatically goes to the D1 championship game, like in the NCS.

The Section would be able to crown a true champion AND keep two other really good teams in the hunt for regional/state bowl wins at D1 and D2.

 

[Santa Ball]

You don’t have to break up the SFL. Keep the league but make the teams compete in SJS -D1 playoffs or form an Open Division.

Teams like GB, DO, and Rocklin shouldn’t e able to hide in the D2 playoffs. If they can play in the big boy league, let them also play in the premier playoff bracket.

Dam homie, you sound scared. Translation, my team with no demographic advantage and no "Catholic School" advantage, wants to hide from better coached teams despite enrollment and win a partipation trophy, despite no noteable advantage. Wow!

 

[pastyfastquick3]

Teams like GB, DO, and Rocklin shouldn’t e able to hide in the D2 playoffs

I agree with this fully.

 

[Santa Ball]

I agree with this fully.

We can all go open enrollment. Hooray!

 

[RidgeRider]

You don’t have to break up the SFL. Keep the league but make the teams compete in SJS -D1 playoffs or form an Open Division.

Teams like GB, DO, and Rocklin shouldn’t e able to hide in the D2 playoffs. If they can play in the big boy league, let them also play in the premier playoff bracket

Hide? Really? When’s the last time DO beat Folsom? Last time it was even close (three scores)? Same for Rocklin, Whitney and GB? Maybe once or twice in the the last dozen years we saw Rocklin beat them and GB I think was close as well. Those schools have to play against D1 schools because two D1 schools were added to the league. So yea, I agree they play them but are they at the same level? The answer is no. It takes a bumper crop of athletes to even get close and that only happens every once in awhile. The only way for Rocklin, Whitney, GB and DO to actually compete regularly would be to go open enrollment, encourage transfers and initiate a holdback program. Is that what we really want for high school athletics?

 

[pastyfastquick3]

We can all go open enrollment. Hooray!

You're about 10 years too late. Every SFL has open enrollment.

Check the CIF website. Rocklin has 17 transfers and it still wasn't enough to beat D2 Manteca!

 

[ThunderRam]

The SFL is a great football league (too top heavy in my opinion). With the exception of MT, it houses the best teams in the Sacramento region.

MT would just be another SFL team too. And “top heavy” is a rather silly statement.

Folsom having been the undisputed top team in the SFL for the past 8 years doesn’t mean the other teams aren’t tops in the area. Because they typically are.

That’s exactly why the SFL gets so much respect from the postseason committee. Because they see these 2nd, 3rd and sometimes 4th place SFL teams perform well during the postseason against other league champs.

If you average out the past 10-12-years the teams that are typically in the mix for section titles that are also ranked in the top 3-5 consistently have been Folsom, St. Mary’s, Grant Union, Del Oro, Granite Bay, Oak Ridge, etc.

Sacramento High had a few years of success and Monterey Trail has trended up in recent years but on the whole 2/3rd‘s of the SFL has consistently represented the very best in the area.

While Whitney hasn’t competed super well, Rocklin has years where they certainly are a threat to Folsom and has fared well against the rest of the league.

So “top heavy” is a literal joke when compared to all other teams not named Folsom. If the SFL is top heavy then any league in the area would become instantly top heavy once Folsom was added.

One of Manteca‘s best teams in recent memory barely took down a down Rocklin team last night. If they played 10 straight years that might be the only win they get.

These SFL teams are consistently good, even when not fielding one of their better teams. That’s the difference.

 

[BigMann08]

Dam homie, you sound scared. Translation, my team with no demographic advantage and no "Catholic School" advantage, wants to hide from better coached teams despite enrollment and win a partipation trophy, despite no noteable advantage. Wow!

Your translation is off and your condescension/insult is lame. I hope you don’t say “homie” in public… That’s not a good look…

I’m from the era where the best teams compete with the best and actually want to compete with the best. Our philosophies are apparently different.
It sounds like you equate enrollment size to competitive parity. I don’t agree with that calculation.

Using your participation theory, do we also equate the SFL teams competing in D2 as teams competing for a participation trophy? You compete in the “toughest league in NorCal” but then drop down to D2 to compete for a participation trophy.

I see an inconsistency. We boast of having the strongest league. Why not the strongest playoff?

 

[BigMann08]

MT would just be another SFL team too. And “top heavy” is a rather silly statement.

Folsom having been the undisputed top team in the SFL for the past 8 years doesn’t mean the other teams aren’t tops in the area. Because they typically are.

That’s exactly why the SFL gets so much respect from the postseason committee. Because they see these 2nd, 3rd and sometimes 4th place SFL teams perform well during the postseason against other league champs.

If you average out the past 10-12-years the teams that are typically in the mix for section titles that are also ranked in the top 3-5 consistently have been Folsom, St. Mary’s, Grant Union, Del Oro, Granite Bay, Oak Ridge, etc.

Sacramento High had a few years of success and Monterey Trail has trended up in recent years but on the whole 2/3rd‘s of the SFL has consistently represented the very best in the area.

While Whitney hasn’t competed super well, Rocklin has years where they certainly are a threat to Folsom and has fared well against the rest of the league.

So “top heavy” is a literal joke when compared to all other teams not named Folsom. If the SFL is top heavy then any league in the area would become instantly top heavy once Folsom was added.

One of Manteca‘s best teams in recent memory barely took down a down Rocklin team last night. If they played 10 straight years that might be the only win they get.

These SFL teams are consistently good, even when not fielding one of their better teams. That’s the difference.

The SFL is top heavy. You have 5 of the top 7 programs in the section playing in one league.

 

[BigMann08]

Hide? Really? When’s the last time DO beat Folsom? Last time it was even close (three scores)? Same for Rocklin, Whitney and GB? Maybe once or twice in the the last dozen years we saw Rocklin beat them and GB I think was close as well. Those schools have to play against D1 schools because two D1 schools were added to the league. So yea, I agree they play them but are they at the same level? The answer is no. It takes a bumper crop of athletes to even get close and that only happens every once in awhile. The only way for Rocklin, Whitney, GB and DO to actually compete regularly would be to go open enrollment, encourage transfers and initiate a holdback program. Is that what we really want for high school athletics?

So are you saying that the SFL teams are riding Folsom’s coattails and are not “elite” programs?

 

[Santa Ball]

Your translation is off and your condescension/insult is lame. I hope you don’t say “homie” in public… That’s not a good look…

I’m from the era where the best teams compete with the best and actually want to compete with the best. Our philosophies are apparently different.
It sounds like you equate enrollment size to competitive parity. I don’t agree with that calculation.

Using your participation theory, do we also equate the SFL teams competing in D2 as teams competing for a participation trophy? You compete in the “toughest league in NorCal” but then drop down to D2 to compete for a participation trophy.

I see an inconsistency. We boast of having the strongest league. Why not the strongest playoff?.

The inconsistencies exist in your argument homeslice. You still haven't addressed the advantages outside of this "open division" beyond the "just because".

You state you grew up an the era where the best played the best, except here you are advocating for division assembly with teams of no handicap avoiding any heavy hitters.

Furthermore I would agree that moving out good teams regardless of league affiliation to pave the way for a trophy is the antithesis of a participation trophy mindset, something your comfortable with.

 

[Santa Ball]

You're about 10 years too late. Every SFL has open enrollment.

Check the CIF website. Rocklin has 17 transfers and it still wasn't enough to beat D2 Manteca!

Again your lies have been exposed. Yawn. Also I couldn't believe what I saw from the Mighty Folsom Bulldogs with there 18 transfers and crowd after barely squeaking by Rocklin and mustering a mere 14pts, lol. I thought the sideline was going to rush the field. The amount of vulgar being cast by people with less than 3 teeth was something I will never forget.

 

[RidgeRider]

So are you saying that the SFL teams are riding Folsom’s coattails and are not “elite” programs?

Folsom is a program with elite talent, who was placed in the SFL.

SFL was a very strong league pre-Folsom. If anything, Folsom has benefited the most from being in the SFL.

GB, Rocklin, DO and Whitney are strong programs that play in the same league and are all about 5 miles from each other. These teams would be good, year in and year out, even if Folsom were moved. It’s in their metaphorical DNA. Folsom did not add much other than a chance to play on a blue field and a window into how they constructed their success.

 

[ILOVETROJANFOOTBALL]

Hide? Really? When’s the last time DO beat Folsom? Last time it was even close (three scores)? Same for Rocklin, Whitney and GB? Maybe once or twice in the the last dozen years we saw Rocklin beat them and GB I think was close as well. Those schools have to play against D1 schools because two D1 schools were added to the league. So yea, I agree they play them but are they at the same level? The answer is no. It takes a bumper crop of athletes to even get close and that only happens every once in awhile. The only way for Rocklin, Whitney, GB and DO to actually compete regularly would be to go open enrollment, encourage transfers and initiate a holdback program. Is that what we really want for high school athletics?

Oak Ridge looked strong this season. Maybe follow their example.

 

[RidgeRider]

Oak Ridge looked strong this season. Maybe follow their example.

What is their example? Please educate me. Holdbacks? What? Should the other schools in the SFL do a bond initiative to expand their schools so they can take in more kids? Help me out here?

 

[larry legend33]

What is their example? Please educate me. Holdbacks? What? Should the other schools in the SFL do a bond initiative to expand their schools so they can take in more kids? Help me out here?

I wouldn’t change anything for granite bay, rocklin, OR, and DO. These teams are all playing near the highest level that Hs has to offer without being in the Trinity league and all the shenanigans that come with big money hs football. Folsom has finally started to schedule up in preseason which is More on par with what they should have been doing for a long time.
So with all that stuff they do, they still find themselves playing for a bowl game (assuming they beat a much improved DLS team) that really not many care about. Will the SoCal opponent be even a top 20 state team?

 

[colhenrylives]

Again your lies have been exposed. Yawn. Also I couldn't believe what I saw from the Mighty Folsom Bulldogs with there 18 transfers and crowd after barely squeaking by Rocklin and mustering a mere 14pts, lol. I thought the sideline was going to rush the field. The amount of vulgar being cast by people with less than 3 teeth was something I will never forget.

That's a direct slur on those of us with two molars at most.

 

[RidgeRider]

I wouldn’t change anything for granite bay, rocklin, OR, and DO. These teams are all playing near the highest level that Hs has to offer without being in the Trinity league and all the shenanigans that come with big money hs football. Folsom has finally started to schedule up in preseason which is More on par with what they should have been doing for a long time.
So with all that stuff they do, they still find themselves playing for a bowl game (assuming they beat a much improved DLS team) that really not many care about. Will the SoCal opponent be even a top 20 state team?

I wouldn’t change anything either and I couldn’t agree more.

 

[remc]

Somebody was earlier in year. Said the wcal and I was like no way. Not this year.

Last year, WCAL was better. This year, the SFL is, and is most years