Carondelet Update

[Norcal_Fan]

AMEN! There are many solid programs and coaches out there that have done it with integrity and respect for the game and respect other coaches and programs. Unfortunately those ones don't usually make the news. Maybe winning trumps all and maybe some know they can't win without hustling. Winning doesn't define a great season or great experience. Neither does how many kids go D1 out of that program. But to some it does...........

Im all with you and have always said that some of the best coaches and coaching happens outside of the top 10. 95% of the time teams in the top ten are LOADED with talent and a lot of. coaches could be successful with those players. Then there are GREAT coaches in those programs that teach the game and their players get the most out of their experience.

On this board and in the ranking, winning does trump all. Most people equate success with wins and it's not always the case,.

 

[ankleassassin]

You aren't understanding the message then if you think I don't want or care to win at an elite level. Have fun with the buddies and cool cheers? LOL ok buddy. If you think winning over everything type players only go to (private schools/schools they are recruited by) then you are lost. I enjoy the process of winning more than anyone but I only enjoy it if it comes without sacrificing what my principles of high school sports should be. I also accept that everyone has a different opinion on this.

i guess i mean. sure the process is cool. but if nobody else on the team takes the process like you and you continue to come in last place, at what point is enough enough? you only have 4 years. my sacrificing needs to be matched. that does not happen at enough schools which means kids will find schools that it does match.

 

[JumphookK]

then you have never won at the elite level. i do not work hours upon hours to have fun with the buddies and make cool cheers. i want a chance at rings. the players will be my friends no win or lose. no athlete should be on the court if they arent wanting to win. this aint 4 grade cyo

people will occasionally type stupid things then hit the send icon without knowing just how stupid their message is.. Example one is the " Pinnacle of Girls basketball" . This is another example.... Super Coach Ankle Assassin , I will applaud you for being honest. I've been a part of some good teams and some bad teams at Logan and my kids played on both good and bad. I coached some of those teams and I was a dad on some of those teams. Winning didn't make the difference though. The best and most rewarding team I was associated with was an average team at best. I cant imagine telling the kids on that team " if you aren't wanting to win you shouldn't be on the court". "OK KIDS RAISE YOUR HANDS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO WIN! dumb. 99% of Players don't want a coach that is there to just win rings. 99% of Parents don't want a coach that just wants to win rings. The exception are the schools that recruit, offer tuition grants, have no boundaries , operate under different rules than 99% of the rest of the geography then say dumb things like " we are the pinnacle" or " I don't work hours upon hours to have fun with the buddies" .

Can we all agree to stop the comparisons between the 99% who are rule bound, geography bound, recruiting bound and the 1% who operate under a different set of rules with little or no accountability? Otherwise, stop applauding the Kelly Sopaks for winning the 100 yard dash against the other runners who had to wear size 22 clown shoes . Applaud the Sue Phillips when she is the best against teams who operate under the same rules.

In my 40 years of sports and 50 years of life , I have learned that Ego consumed, inferiority complex suffering people use high school sports "winning" to control others in an attempt to help them feel less personally inadequate. Que the hate....

 

[Norcal_Fan]

people will occasionally type stupid things then hit the send icon without knowing just how stupid their message is.. Example one is the " Pinnacle of Girls basketball" . This is another example.... Super Coach Ankle Assassin , I will applaud you for being honest. I've been a part of some good teams and some bad teams at Logan and my kids played on both good and bad. I coached some of those teams and I was a dad on some of those teams. Winning didn't make the difference though. The best and most rewarding team I was associated with was an average team at best. I cant imagine telling the kids on that team " if you aren't wanting to win you shouldn't be on the court". "OK KIDS RAISE YOUR HANDS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO WIN! dumb. 99% of Players don't want a coach that is there to just win rings. 99% of Parents don't want a coach that just wants to win rings. The exception are the schools that recruit, offer tuition grants, have no boundaries , operate under different rules than 99% of the rest of the geography then say dumb things like " we are the pinnacle" or " I don't work hours upon hours to have fun with the buddies" .

Can we all agree to stop the comparisons between the 99% who are rule bound, geography bound, recruiting bound and the 1% who operate under a different set of rules with little or no accountability? Otherwise, stop applauding the Kelly Sopaks for winning the 100 yard dash against the other runners who had to wear size 22 clown shoes . Applaud the Sue Phillips when she is the best against teams who operate under the same rules.

In my 40 years of sports and 50 years of life , I have learned that Ego consumed, inferiority complex suffering people use high school sports "winning" to control others in an attempt to help them feel less personally inadequate. Que the hate....

very interesting take. I was looking at the NCS results and MM only won NCS championships and the 4 years they won NCS was when Sabrina was playing. That said, they've always been in the mix but in the last two WCJ's, have ducked the better competition...Again, it'll be interesting to see how well Sopak does at C-Let!

 

[ankleassassin]

people will occasionally type stupid things then hit the send icon without knowing just how stupid their message is.. Example one is the " Pinnacle of Girls basketball" . This is another example.... Super Coach Ankle Assassin , I will applaud you for being honest. I've been a part of some good teams and some bad teams at Logan and my kids played on both good and bad. I coached some of those teams and I was a dad on some of those teams. Winning didn't make the difference though. The best and most rewarding team I was associated with was an average team at best. I cant imagine telling the kids on that team " if you aren't wanting to win you shouldn't be on the court". "OK KIDS RAISE YOUR HANDS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO WIN! dumb. 99% of Players don't want a coach that is there to just win rings. 99% of Parents don't want a coach that just wants to win rings. The exception are the schools that recruit, offer tuition grants, have no boundaries , operate under different rules than 99% of the rest of the geography then say dumb things like " we are the pinnacle" or " I don't work hours upon hours to have fun with the buddies" .

Can we all agree to stop the comparisons between the 99% who are rule bound, geography bound, recruiting bound and the 1% who operate under a different set of rules with little or no accountability? Otherwise, stop applauding the Kelly Sopaks for winning the 100 yard dash against the other runners who had to wear size 22 clown shoes . Applaud the Sue Phillips when she is the best against teams who operate under the same rules.

In my 40 years of sports and 50 years of life , I have learned that Ego consumed, inferiority complex suffering people use high school sports "winning" to control others in an attempt to help them feel less personally inadequate. Que the hate....

* super player

i never once stepped on the court just hoping to have fun once i tasted what losing feels like. i do not expect you to tell the players if they dont want to win dont be on the court. chances are they are not playing anyway so you do not have to say it. sure the coach at some schools need to be able to extend life lessons too and i played at one of those schools. however winning sure teaches life lessons as well. i would much rather have my coach worry about me winning there.

 

[fan1gbball]

Winning is great...Winning with Integrity and respect for the game is the ultimate.

 

[ankleassassin]

Winning is great...Winning with Integrity and respect for the game is the ultimate.

who is to blame? the child? the coach or the parent?

 

[colhenrylives]

The vast bulk of the prep girls' basketball programs throughout CA are not only not elite they have no interest at all in being elite. They are normal, non-hyped, unaffected by AAU outfits and demands and simply part of their schools' athletic programs which are designed for students who also want a competitive team experience along with academics. We are talking here about a tiny minority of high-powered entities, most of them private/parochials which see enrollment/financial pluses coming from successful teams.

 

[ClayK]

A thread I sort of wanted to avoid, but ...

1) I will be at Carondelet, as JV coach and some help on the varsity level (scouting, probably). I don't like traveling and I like teaching fundamentals so it's a great fit.

2) As for recruiting/building programs: You can go back in time and you will always find high school programs that excel over time, in every sport. And almost all of those programs are built by coaches who want to succeed -- and to succeed you must have talent. To acquire talent, you must recruit at the middle school level; that's been going on forever, in all sports, and will never change. You also must recruit within your school -- many girls must choose between soccer and basketball, and the successful coach gets the good athlete to play on her team.

3) Elite coaches recruit and coach. Obviously you can win when you have superior talent, but at some point you run into a team with equal talent. It's a lot easier to coach when you have good players because then when you do things correctly, you make shots or make stops. But a team without talent can do everything well and miss the open shot or have a superior athlete just overwhelm a lesser player in perfect position.

So though coaching is still coaching when you don't have talent, it's frustrating, but no one gets rewarded for their efforts, the players or the coaches. If you want to get rewarded, you need talent, and if you want talent you have to recruit.

It's always been that way and it's unlikely to change. And I could ramble on about the hypocrisy inherent in transfer rules, etc., and how keeping families from doing the best they can to grab a chance at a scholarship makes no sense, but that's enough for now.

 

[colhenrylives]

It is quite refreshing to see Clay come out strongly and bluntly in favor of recruiting, something CIF honchos and a lot of prep fans (mainly of public schools) despise. Clay has some detractors but there's one thing they cannot accuse him of at this point: Hypocrisy. His view on recruiting is out there on the table and he owns it. You have to give him kudos for being upfront and honest.

 

[personalogic]

A thread I sort of wanted to avoid, but ...

1) I will be at Carondelet, as JV coach and some help on the varsity level (scouting, probably). I don't like traveling and I like teaching fundamentals so it's a great fit.

2) As for recruiting/building programs: You can go back in time and you will always find high school programs that excel over time, in every sport. And almost all of those programs are built by coaches who want to succeed -- and to succeed you must have talent. To acquire talent, you must recruit at the middle school level; that's been going on forever, in all sports, and will never change. You also must recruit within your school -- many girls must choose between soccer and basketball, and the successful coach gets the good athlete to play on her team.

3) Elite coaches recruit and coach. Obviously you can win when you have superior talent, but at some point you run into a team with equal talent. It's a lot easier to coach when you have good players because then when you do things correctly, you make shots or make stops. But a team without talent can do everything well and miss the open shot or have a superior athlete just overwhelm a lesser player in perfect position.

So though coaching is still coaching when you don't have talent, it's frustrating, but no one gets rewarded for their efforts, the players or the coaches. If you want to get rewarded, you need talent, and if you want talent you have to recruit.

It's always been that way and it's unlikely to change. And I could ramble on about the hypocrisy inherent in transfer rules, etc., and how keeping families from doing the best they can to grab a chance at a scholarship makes no sense, but that's enough for now.

Any info on who might be taking over at Miramonte, or which of the MM players have transferred to C-let?

 

[ankleassassin]

A thread I sort of wanted to avoid, but ...

1) I will be at Carondelet, as JV coach and some help on the varsity level (scouting, probably). I don't like traveling and I like teaching fundamentals so it's a great fit.

2) As for recruiting/building programs: You can go back in time and you will always find high school programs that excel over time, in every sport. And almost all of those programs are built by coaches who want to succeed -- and to succeed you must have talent. To acquire talent, you must recruit at the middle school level; that's been going on forever, in all sports, and will never change. You also must recruit within your school -- many girls must choose between soccer and basketball, and the successful coach gets the good athlete to play on her team.

3) Elite coaches recruit and coach. Obviously you can win when you have superior talent, but at some point you run into a team with equal talent. It's a lot easier to coach when you have good players because then when you do things correctly, you make shots or make stops. But a team without talent can do everything well and miss the open shot or have a superior athlete just overwhelm a lesser player in perfect position.

So though coaching is still coaching when you don't have talent, it's frustrating, but no one gets rewarded for their efforts, the players or the coaches. If you want to get rewarded, you need talent, and if you want talent you have to recruit.

It's always been that way and it's unlikely to change. And I could ramble on about the hypocrisy inherent in transfer rules, etc., and how keeping families from doing the best they can to grab a chance at a scholarship makes no sense, but that's enough for now.

the best thing was the last paragraph. you are supposed to put your kid in position to succeed. playing with the neighborhood girls just for the fun of it versus playing at another school with championship expectations and scholarship opportunities... no brainer.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

the best thing was the last paragraph. you are supposed to put your kid in position to succeed. playing with the neighborhood girls just for the fun of it versus playing at another school with championship expectations and scholarship opportunities... no brainer.

I agree and don't agree. Sometimes parents get so focused on the outcome that they lose sight of what got their kid there in the first place: the love of it. I spent all my summers and any chance I had, playing for the fun of it..it made me fall in love with the game. I think you can play for fun while still being competitive. I don't think that a school defines the instrisic motivation for a championship or a scholarship type of player, but it does help her stay on the course if that's the expectation.

 

[ankleassassin]

I agree and don't agree. Sometimes parents get so focused on the outcome that they lose sight of what got their kid there in the first place: the love of it. I spent all my summers and any chance I had, playing for the fun of it..it made me fall in love with the game. I think you can play for fun while still being competitive. I don't think that a school defines the instrisic motivation for a championship or a scholarship type of player, but it does help her stay on the course if that's the expectation.

I agree. We will have those parents who are misguided or not honest with themselves of how good their child really is. as for the school defining. i more was going with iron sharpens iron.

 

[ClayK]

As far as I know, no Miramonte players are transferring to Carondelet.

Vince Wirthman, the JV coach for the past four years, would seem to be the front-runner, though he admits following someone as successful as Kelly is far from ideal. I hope he gets the job, as he's an Orinda guy and has put in the time. And again, as far as I know, Mia Mastrov and Jordan Allred, the two big guns for the Mats, will be playing in March.

 

[fan1gbball]

What players transferred in before the announcement?

 

[OnBall8]

I think what a lot of readers are hanging onto from Clays post is the word "recruiting" in regards to middle schoolers (and even transfers for the point I will make). People automatically assume that he means there are high school coaches going to middle schools telling the best players why they should play for him/her like a college coach would recruit. Are there coaches out there that try to do this? I'm sure there are some. But what I have witnessed over the years it is not like that at all in most cases.

How is it done then? You may ask.. well younger AAU teams play a huge part in this. Trust is built at a young age and this can carry through to a young persons decision of high schools to attend. Kids can recognize good coaches and they often want to continue playing for them. The words "come play for me" may never be uttered, but a relationship or overall culture is created, especially a winning culture. So many times I have seen at local AAU tournaments, a team gets waxed and its best players mom or dad is over talking to the winning team's coach or parents. (Parents are the greatest recruiters btw) People want to be a part of those atmospheres. Those 4th, 5th, 6th grade Cal Stars players are certainly (in large part, not all) looking up in awe at those EYBL players, the ones playing for Kelly, and hoping they get to do that one day. Often these coaches just have to create the blueprint for success (however you want to define it) and then create opportunity to carry that out.. people will come, parents and kids alike. This is how I have seen and heard "recruiting" happen more often than not. Again, surely there are exceptions, and the lines may get blurry in some instances, but if done right it can certainly be done without breaking any CIF rules as they are intended.

 

[ClayK]

Very true. What's important is that a high school coach shows interest in a player by coming to her games, talking to her parents and maybe even saying "We'd love to have you at Mater Dei." That, in my book, is recruiting (even without the last part), and that's what any successful coach in any high school program in any sport must do.

It's also true that parents and boosters will be out and about and encourage players to come. For example, the younger sister of a varsity player at Windward, say, will be playing in a club event. The parents notice a really good player on another team and get to talking to those parents. Everybody wants to be on a winner -- well almost everybody -- and good players tend to want to play with each other, so there's a connection and now Windward is on that other player's radar.

And it's game of numbers. A program (referring to everyone from players to parents to assistants to the head coach) makes contact with as many middle-school players as possible because that just increases the odds of bringing talent to a school.

And I fail to see anything wrong with this. Kids go to high schools because of chorus, because of math, because of drama -- why shouldn't they make the same decision about athletics?

 

[colhenrylives]

Why not indeed. Perhaps because there is no CIF governing chorus, math, drama, etc. But I do understand your point.

 

[colhenrylives]

One more thing: In most cases, public school choice is very limited. Typically, you go to the school within defined geographic boundaries. There are some exceptions like magnet schools, charter schools, etc. The private/parochials have no such limitations. They can reach out and collect kids from hither and yon. "Recruiting" is in the eye of the beholder and, sometimes, on the radar of CIF. But, frankly, the wheezing horse is out of the barn. Recruiting is here to stay; it's been around forever. It's just a bit eye-opening to read Clay's honest take on the matter in stark black and white as he proceeds to the green pastures of Carondelet.

 

[bayareagbballfan]

The CIF rule is nonsensical. The title is "Undue Influence" but the key word here is "Undue." However, this word is never defined nor are examples given in the text of the rule. The text of the rule defines ANY influence and talk about "objectively seen". What the heck does "objectively seen" mean and who decides what is objective? To mean, it's subjective and totally arbitrary.

“Undue influence is any act, gesture or communication (including accepting material or financial inducement to attend a CIF member school for the purposes of engaging in CIF competition regardless of the source) which is performed personally, or through another, which maybe be objectively seen as an inducement, or part of a process of inducing a student, or his or her parent(s)/ guardian(s)/caregiver, by or on behalf of, a member school, to enroll in, transfer to, or remain in, a particular school for athletic purposes.)”

 

[ankleassassin]

How did Carondelet do last season? How many players do they have coming back?

 

[ClayK]

A note on NCS undue influence: So a girl came to Bentley when I was the head coach there and played in an open gym. At the end, the dad asked me in a sort of polite way "How many kids go to school here?" I answered that question and a couple more about the school in general. Then he says "We were thinking about Bentley." So I called Gil Lemmon and asked "Was I in violation here? I didn't even know they were thinking about coming here. It was just chit-chat."

I was in violation. Any question about any aspect of the school had to go through the AD or admissions' office. This means that if anyone asked me a question about Bentley, I could not answer. After all, they might have a basketball-playing daughter.

Yes, telling a parent Bentley had 300 students and a campus in Oakland was a recruiting violation.

 

[Norcal_Fan]

A note on NCS undue influence: So a girl came to Bentley when I was the head coach there and played in an open gym. At the end, the dad asked me in a sort of polite way "How many kids go to school here?" I answered that question and a couple more about the school in general. Then he says "We were thinking about Bentley." So I called Gil Lemmon and asked "Was I in violation here? I didn't even know they were thinking about coming here. It was just chit-chat."

I was in violation. Any question about any aspect of the school had to go through the AD or admissions' office. This means that if anyone asked me a question about Bentley, I could not answer. After all, they might have a basketball-playing daughter.

Yes, telling a parent Bentley had 300 students and a campus in Oakland was a recruiting violation.

sorry but that's absolutely absurd. The archaic rules set forth by the NCS is plain old dumb, case and point.

 

[bayareagbballfan]

sorry but that's absolutely absurd. The archaic rules set forth by the NCS is plain old dumb, case and point.

Agreed. To use CIF words, any "objective" person would not consider that an "inducement" to attend.

 

[becoolpt55]

How does all this work when your players are talking to other players or other parents ....or you post on this board

 

[straightline50]

Both are not very smart.

 

[becoolpt55]

So Clay is not smart to post?

 

[ClayK]

Probably not ... silence is most often the best option.

 

[colhenrylives]

Probably not ... silence is most often the best option.

I wondered about that too. Recruiting remains a sensitive topic for many of us, especially those with public school affiliations and backgrounds. Not sure how the folks at Carondelet would react to your very blunt comments on the subject. But, hey, it's a free country and, goodness knows, you have paid your dues over the years.

 

[ankleassassin]

I wondered about that too. Recruiting remains a sensitive topic for many of us, especially those with public school affiliations and backgrounds. Not sure how the folks at Carondelet would react to your very blunt comments on the subject. But, hey, it's a free country and, goodness knows, you have paid your dues over the years.

but now that they are at a private school it is not illegal anymore. so now the cat can come out the bag.

i do think he explained it pretty clear though. he never said recruit current players at other high schools. he stated you must build relationships with middle school and aau teams. as well as girls on your campus.

 

[becoolpt55]

We all know how this works coach at MItty doesn’t tell the parents of a 6 foot middle school kid.... “We'd love to have your daughter at Mitty" The coach Smiles and tells the parents I love to have your daughter play on my AAU teams... the parents and kid are hooked...the deal is over before it starts

 

[Norcal_Fan]

but now that they are at a private school it is not illegal anymore. so now the cat can come out the bag.

i do think he explained it pretty clear though. he never said recruit current players at other high schools. he stated you must build relationships with middle school and aau teams. as well as girls on your campus.

didn't you read what he said. He said the commish said he would be in violation of recruiting. Bentley is a private school. doesn't matter public or private. The stupid rule is what it is and applies to ALL schools.

 

[ankleassassin]

didn't you read what he said. He said the commish said he would be in violation of recruiting. Bentley is a private school. doesn't matter public or private. The stupid rule is what it is and applies to ALL schools.

i was talking about what he currently said not about what happened at bentley.

 

[ankleassassin]

We all know how this works coach at MItty doesn’t tell the parents of a 6 foot middle school kid.... “We'd love to have your daughter at Mitty" The coach Smiles and tells the parents I love to have your daughter play on my AAU teams... the parents and kid are hooked...the deal is over before it starts

thats how it is supposed to be.

 

[becoolpt55]

Yes at the schools with all the juice
And well oiled AAU feeder program it works
Like a machine

 

[GBBall4L]

We all know how this works coach at MItty doesn’t tell the parents of a 6 foot middle school kid.... “We'd love to have your daughter at Mitty" The coach Smiles and tells the parents I love to have your daughter play on my AAU teams... the parents and kid are hooked...the deal is over before it starts

I would think the parents make the decision based on the work and growth they feel their kid is getting at the AAU program. Having a "feeder" program is essential to compete at a high level and it shows the commitment the coach has to the program.

 

[ClayK]

And how did the schools get the juice? Did it just happen? Or did some coaches work harder than other coaches? And do some continue to do so?

I think there's a fantasy of some perfect world where people never think of changing schools and are perfectly happy with the academics, debate, choral, music, math, science, English, athletics and history departments at their present school and would never to seek to go to a school that might be better for their child. And coaches are solely interested in teaching the game to anyone who shows up at tryouts, regardless of ability, and never think of trying to have better players. And the entire school community -- parents, administrators, students, athletes and alums -- has no interest in the won-loss record of any team, or the quality of its drama and music productions, or any other extracurricular activity, regardless of the required investment of time and energy, and is happy with the leadership of those programs, regardless of outcome.

Human behavior is pretty clearly geared to competition and hierarchy, where folks try to prove themselves better than others. To imagine this is not the case in the drama departments, music departments and athletic departments in schools everywhere is to assume that human beings quit competing as soon as they become teachers, and athletes and their parents have no interest in winning, losing or being competitive.

Wouldn't honesty be the best policy? Wouldn't it make sense for families to send their children to the schools the families thought would serve those children best, with full access to extracurriculars? And wouldn't it make sense for schools and coaches to answer when asked about their programs?

 

[GBBall4L]

You aren't understanding the message then if you think I don't want or care to win at an elite level. Have fun with the buddies and cool cheers? LOL ok buddy. If you think winning over everything type players only go to (private schools/schools they are recruited by) then you are lost. I enjoy the process of winning more than anyone but I only enjoy it if it comes without sacrificing what my principles of high school sports should be. I also accept that everyone has a different opinion on this.

What principles are they sacrificing? Has it ever dawned on some of you that kids CHOOSE to go these schools you talk bad about because of the tradition that has been built? The kids CHOOSE these programs. It ain't like a college recruiter coming around saying come play here. If undue influence is as simple as a parent asking how many kids go to a school and a coach answering I get the feeling some of you are using the term "undue influence" to your advantage.

 

[LBJ6]

What principles are they sacrificing? Has it ever dawned on some of you that kids CHOOSE to go these schools you talk bad about because of the tradition that has been built? The kids CHOOSE these programs. It ain't like a college recruiter coming around saying come play here. If undue influence is as simple as a parent asking how many kids go to a school and a coach answering I get the feeling some of you are using the term "undue influence" to your advantage.

"They" aren't sacrificing any principles. I was referring to myself and only myself. I personally have an image of what I want out of coaching High School girls basketball. I have no issues with girls going wherever they want. There is something authentic to me about winning or losing with girls that are underdogs growing up that aren't choosing between Odowd, CLET, Salesian, etc by the 6th grade. I embrace the public school grind. Always will. Thats my passion. I was just voicing my opinion about the direction I feel the sport is going. Nothing but respect to to the elite programs and coaches.