Thank Cal - yeah I should have checked this year's c-bed before making my statement. Independence is now the third largest school in CCS at 3104 and didn't even make playoffs at the Non-open level. They will be allocated to Non-open again next year.
CCS regional representatives - look at CCS play-offs with no open divisions
- Thread starter PAL Booster
- Start date
Probably yes, but they are not locked there. They play in the Santa Theresa which is classified as a B league. They would have the right to opt up per:
B league champions from the B leagues that are basic leagues with one division may opt up to the Open Division if their CCS point total is more than the A league team with the lowest CCS point total.
Carmel and Aptos had this option this year.
I don't think you get the point of playoffs. It's to advance as far as you can to win championships that mean something. If their 10-0 and don't want to compete I'm ok with it even if it shows no cojones. What would everybody say if St. Mary's College basketball went 30-0 and they opted out of the NCAA tournament to play in the NIT because some teams from bigger conferences are in there.... And no it appears you know nothing about NCS. Why would a team petition up when the can stay in their natural division and advance to state. Not everybody is obsessed with beating DLS
Some clarification:
2Wcats: Only the SCCAL (Aptos) and the MTAL (Carmel) Champs can choose to move up. Currently those are the only 2 B Leagues with 1 division. The rest of the B leagues are part of Equity leagues meaning they would have to petition to the upper division (A) prior to the season starting.
mshNasty: I think you make some great points about Carmel not opting to move up. I like the St. Mary's comparison. But this is football not basketball. Undefeated Western Michigan will not be selected into the college football playoff to go up against Alabama. They will get an opportunity to play in a big bowl game (assuming they stay unbeaten). CA state bowl games come down to selections and putting together the best match-ups. It is not a true playoff. Because there is no true state standard for football playoffs, every section has developed their own standards. An argument can be made that they are all flawed.
CCS wants to get their 5 best teams in, they felt this was the most fair and competitive way to do it. Just like "not everybody in NCS is obsessed with beating DLS", not everyone in the CCS is obsessed with making a state bowl game. Carmel's best player is out for the season, even with him, it would of been a stretch to compete with VC and Palma. Without him almost impossible. Instead they will chase only the 2nd section title in school history. 30 years from now that all those kids will remember.
2Wcats: Only the SCCAL (Aptos) and the MTAL (Carmel) Champs can choose to move up. Currently those are the only 2 B Leagues with 1 division. The rest of the B leagues are part of Equity leagues meaning they would have to petition to the upper division (A) prior to the season starting.
mshNasty: I think you make some great points about Carmel not opting to move up. I like the St. Mary's comparison. But this is football not basketball. Undefeated Western Michigan will not be selected into the college football playoff to go up against Alabama. They will get an opportunity to play in a big bowl game (assuming they stay unbeaten). CA state bowl games come down to selections and putting together the best match-ups. It is not a true playoff. Because there is no true state standard for football playoffs, every section has developed their own standards. An argument can be made that they are all flawed.
CCS wants to get their 5 best teams in, they felt this was the most fair and competitive way to do it. Just like "not everybody in NCS is obsessed with beating DLS", not everyone in the CCS is obsessed with making a state bowl game. Carmel's best player is out for the season, even with him, it would of been a stretch to compete with VC and Palma. Without him almost impossible. Instead they will chase only the 2nd section title in school history. 30 years from now that all those kids will remember.
I believe this is incorrect. Only isolated leagues may have their champions opt up. The only isolated leagues are the SCCAL and MTAL. All other B and C leagues are actually divisions of super leagues.
As such, only Carmel and Aptos had this option.
For all others, if they feel they might be able to challenge for one of the CCS's regional spots, they can make a push to join the A division within their super league.
So, if Carmel wants to stay in their natural division, they're chumps. But, if an NCS team does it, they're champs.
Tiny public schools should be more than welcome to avoid a powerful private school in the NCS, but it should be disdained in the CCS?
Your hypocrisy is amazing.
In truth, watching small schools in the NCS hide out in D-III or D-IV and getting a shot to advance is actually one of the reasons why the CCS went to this format. It's to give their smaller schools a chance to advance.
Your St. Mary's comparison is not even remotely valid. A bid into the NCAA tournament is a recruiting tool that they can use to build their program. It also gets them on national TV, which further helps them recruit. You can't recruit in high school.
You claim you're okay with their decision, so why do you keep bitching about it?
The facts are clear... NCS schools could have done what you're wanting for years, but they were too chicken $h!t to do so, so you're way out of place complaining about similar decisions in the CCS.
You are right I read this incorrectly. "B league champions from the B leagues that are basic leagues with one division may opt up to the Open Division" hence by being part of the BVAL Santa Theresa Division it will preclude them from opting up since there is a Mt. Hamilton Division that is an "A". My mistake
Well stated. Only a fool would fail to see the parallels of wanting to avoid DLS and WCAL teams when you're a small public school of less than 900 students.
I'm still waiting for the day that Lincoln wins the MHAL. Do they still refuse to go to the playoffs and possibly state to play in the Bone game?
They should just schedule that game for the regular season like normal teams. They could make it a tradition to open the season against each other.
The Big Bone is a Thanksgiving Day tradition. Apparently, both schools want to keep that way. Good for them.
Wrong - Santa Teresa is not a baisc B league; it is part of the Blossom Hill Superleague where Mt. Hamiliton is A, Santa Teresa is B and West Valley is C. The only basic B leagues in CCS this year is Santa Cruz league (Aptos was league champ and opted up) and Mission Trail league (Carmel is legaue champ but didn't opt up). In superleagues, teams must earn the right to be in the A division of a superleague. There might be an opt up feature in superleagues where a team can petition to move up to a higher league in their superleage. But that was years ago when I read about that feature and it might not still be in existence. Anyway a team petitioning to move up had to show just cause of stronger future and some team had to agree to move down at the same time. The standard way to move up is to be league champ. That team moves up next year and the lowest team moves down.
PS oops - saw the interchanges too late.
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Pretty hard to change a tradition that goes back to the 40's. They have won multiple Santa Theresa titles and have always opted for the Bone Game. Who knows maybe a Mt. Hamilton division title would be different but I doubt it. Apparently not everyone is hung up on section titles or going to the SBG play in games.
The original reason for the CCS Open Division was that Valley Christian (which could have been playing the best football in the section at the time) was forced down into the small school playoff and it was a track meet with the games over in Q1 against the smaller schools (including MTAL). The playoff format ensured all the WCAL teams would stay out (including Palma which competed in an A league). The move ended up keeping stronger WCAL teams and Palma out of the bowls (many which would compete at the lower enrollment levels). Granted the CCS consolation game was a disaster, but the current format makes sense with the current bowl format. CCS is a small section with one top level state league and so it has had to be innovative to balance the interests (including competitiveness) of its member schools.
Serra in a route over LG? I am speechless and I am not sure what to say about that one. LG lost to a very good San Benito team that went 9-1 whose only loss was to Palma, Corona Del Mar from Newport Beach that also went 9-1, and a good MA team who also went 8-2 early on in this season. My mom always told me to go ugly early and LG has taken that to heart as they started 1-3 and won their final six games.
It was only 2 years ago that Serra was favored over LG and they beat them in their own house but I know everyone is quick to make the assumption that public schools cannot beat these WCAL schools.
It was only 2 years ago that Serra was favored over LG and they beat them in their own house but I know everyone is quick to make the assumption that public schools cannot beat these WCAL schools.
Again you can see the forest for the trees and resort to a temper tantrum. Do you even read the post of just gloss through them? The difference between NCS d5 and CCS d5 is one will advance for the right to play for state and the other will stay home and watch it on TV. Somehow you think there's hypocrisy in that. CCS went to this format to squeeze has many WCAL teams in as possible and because SHP got left out a few years back. I don't have a dog in the fight and I'm not bitching about anything, now just pulling on your tail because you can't handle a spirited debate without losing your cool.
i just find it interesting that the only undefeated team in CCS is already out of the mix for state. The Western Michigan analogy doesn't really apply here. The college football playoff is for the the top 4 teams in the nation. If the open was all the top teams in CCS VC and Palma would be included. Not scatter them around three brackets to play 6-4, 5-5 teams who stand little chance that Carmel happens to be ranked over. Even then there's Boise St v Oklahoma and Utah v Alabama to prove a smaller school can get it done in the big games. If not everybody wants to make state in CCS that's cool. 30 years from now those kids will be sitting at a bar with some guy from Palma and VC saying we'd of beat you guys....
CCS has created a system where school under 1000 students will not have a chance to advance now with the exception of 2 privates NCS will have at least 2 including Cardinal Newman who these small schools can't avoid and a school under 500.
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Why will the schools under 1000 not have a chance at state? All they have to do is win the CCS D3 open or even just be the runner up. If anything it gives the best small schools a better chance at state. Before they were forced up into the lone open division and were competing against schools 2x-4x larger than them.
This is not true. 42 CCS teams are locked out of the open playoffs at the beginning of each year, but prior to to the start of football, every single one of those teams can be considered to be upgraded to their "A" division and a open division playoff opportunity. Coupled with the fact that the 2 stand alone B league champs can move up as well, every CCS 11 man football team, including those with less than 1000 students, has an opportunity to go to state. This is the 2nd year under this system and so far no team has cried about not being included in the open divisions.
The CCS only has one school under 500 students that plays football.
Palma very much has a shot at advancement with 650.
What you refuse to understand is that none of the small public schools would stand a chance in the D-III open:
neutral field
[2016] Valley Christian (San Jose, CA) 42, [2016] Carmel (CA) 8
neutral field
[2016] Palma (Salinas, CA) 38, [2016] Carmel (CA) 17
But, you did prove my point... Cardinal Newman (which, you do understand, is also a private school, right?) still gets to hang out in a lower division and avoid top competition in the playoffs. This is really the reason the CCS had to do what it did.
The CCS had to do what it did because of what the NCS allows. If the NCS went to a similar Open at the same time of the old CCS Open, I'm not sure you'd see the CCS made a switch.
Here you go... Here are this year's NCS teams using last year's brackets of 16 slots for an Open division. As you should see, assuming DLS wins this open bracket, NCS loses Marin Catholic, Campolindo, Clayton Valley and Cardinal Newman from the RGB mix. Does that help you to see the CCS issue any better? Or does your idea apply to CCS only but not to NCS?
NCS Open
1 De La Salle
16 Marin Catholic
8 California
9 Campolindo
4 Clayton Valley
13 Analy
5 Cardinal Newman
12 San Ramon Valley
2 Freedom
15 Foothill-Pleasanton
7 Antioch
10 Rancho Cotate
3 Pittsburg
14 Heritage
6 Monte Vista
11 Bishop O'Dowd
2-8 Sacred Heart Prep is dominating 10-0 Carmel. Sacred Heart has scored 20 straight points to take a 31-14 lead over Carmel with 5:05 left in third quarter. Shows that Carmel should have been in the CCS non bowl division. Another interesting point I read is that the CCS margins of victory for the bowl eligible divisions were high but closer than the NCS and SJS first round games
On to the Semi-Final Round for CCS Play-offs.
Division I
4. Bellarmine 3200 7-4 23.5 (4) at 1. Menlo-Atherton 2279 9-2 30 (5) Friday 3:30
3. Milpitas 3149 9-2 26.5 (11) at 2.San Benito 2899 9-1 30 (8) Friday 7:00 pm
Division II
5. Serra 1758 7-4 24 (3) at 1. St. Francis 1757 10-1 31 (1) Friday 7:00 pm
6. Mitty 1727 6-5 21.5 (6) at 2. Los Gatos 1971 8-3 28.5 (10) Friday 7:00 pm
Division III
4. Live Oak 1096 9-2 26 (17) at 1. Palma 890 9-2 30.33 (7) Friday 7:00 pm at Rabobank
3. Aptos 1411 9-2 27.5 (9) at 2. Valley Christian 1512 10-1 29 (2) Friday 7:00 pm
Non-Open Division IV
4. Homestead 2367 9-2 20.5 (28) at 1. Westmont 1541 10-1 24.5 (35) 7:00 pm Friday night
3. Gilroy 1496 8-3 21 (48) at 2. Soledad 1431 7-3 21.5 (42) Friday 7:00 pm
Non-open Division V
8. Sacred Heart Prep 615 3-8 17 (22) at 4. Half Moon Bay 997 9-2 23 (15) Friday 7:00 pm
3.Menlo 577 10-1 24.5 (13) at 2. Seaside 1054 10-1 25 (39) Friday 7:00 pm
Division I
4. Bellarmine 3200 7-4 23.5 (4) at 1. Menlo-Atherton 2279 9-2 30 (5) Friday 3:30
3. Milpitas 3149 9-2 26.5 (11) at 2.San Benito 2899 9-1 30 (8) Friday 7:00 pm
Division II
5. Serra 1758 7-4 24 (3) at 1. St. Francis 1757 10-1 31 (1) Friday 7:00 pm
6. Mitty 1727 6-5 21.5 (6) at 2. Los Gatos 1971 8-3 28.5 (10) Friday 7:00 pm
Division III
4. Live Oak 1096 9-2 26 (17) at 1. Palma 890 9-2 30.33 (7) Friday 7:00 pm at Rabobank
3. Aptos 1411 9-2 27.5 (9) at 2. Valley Christian 1512 10-1 29 (2) Friday 7:00 pm
Non-Open Division IV
4. Homestead 2367 9-2 20.5 (28) at 1. Westmont 1541 10-1 24.5 (35) 7:00 pm Friday night
3. Gilroy 1496 8-3 21 (48) at 2. Soledad 1431 7-3 21.5 (42) Friday 7:00 pm
Non-open Division V
8. Sacred Heart Prep 615 3-8 17 (22) at 4. Half Moon Bay 997 9-2 23 (15) Friday 7:00 pm
3.Menlo 577 10-1 24.5 (13) at 2. Seaside 1054 10-1 25 (39) Friday 7:00 pm
Notice how no CCS fans are really criticizing this structure? I'm sure some don't love it, but ask them if they would prefer the pre-2004 format, and the answer will be no. Ask if they prefer the one open division with 4 watered down divisions after that with teams like VC and Palma hoping they didn't get forced up so they could have a decent shot at a state bowl game, and the answer will be no.
It was a long winding road that lead to these CCS playoffs, but this is probably the most fair system the CCS has ever had.
It was a long winding road that lead to these CCS playoffs, but this is probably the most fair system the CCS has ever had.
It's kind of funny that you say this. I'm surprised no one has brought up what the CCS had, I believe, prior to 1992.
I'm too tired to look it up tonight, but we had 3 D-I divisions (2A, 3A, and 4A?) and 2 D-II (north and south). Those old D-I divisions look an awful lot alike to what we have now.
CCS Finals
Division I
3. Milpitas 10-2 26.5 (8) vs 1. Menlo Atherton 10-2 (4) 26.5
at Independence High School Friday 7:00 PM
Calpreps projection Menlo-Atherton 28-21
Division II
6. Mitty 7-5 21.5 (7) vs 5. Serra 8-4 24 (2) at Westmont High School Friday 7:00 PM
Calpreps projection Serra 35-21
Division III
2. Valley Christian 11-1 29 (1) vs 1. Palma 10-2 30.33 (6) at Oak Grove High School Friday 7:00 PM
Calpreps Projection Valley Christian 28-13
Division IV
2. Soledad 9-3 21.5 (41) vs 1. Westmont 11-1 24.5 (24) Saturday Independence High School 7:00 PM
Calpreps projection Westmont 21-19
Division V
4. Half Moon Bay 10-2 23 (14) vs 3. Menlo 11-1 24.5 (15) Saturday Sequoia High School time TBD
Calpreps projection Menlo 31-28
Three winners of DI, DII and DIII and loser of the DIII game will get regional play-off berths. The last spot will be between the loser of the DI and DII games.
CCS criteria for selecting among two of the three losing teams is as follows:
1. Head to Head match-ups
2. Record vs common opponents
3. CCS Play-off points
Head to Head match-up advantages:
Valley Cristian over Serra
Valley Christian over Mitty
Common Opponent advantages:
In parentheses common opponent with a different record
Menlo-Atherton over Mitty (Bellarmine)
Mitty Over Milpitas (Los Gatos)
Serra Over Menlo-Atherton (Bellarmine)
Valley Christian over Menlo-Atherton (Bellarmine)
Serra over Palma (St. Francis)
CCS Points
1. Palma 30.33
2. Menlo-Atherton 30
3. Valley Christian 29
4. Milpitas 26.5
5. Serra 24
6. Mitty 21.5
Here is how it looks for all 6 teams if they would lose
1. Valley Christian owns head to head victories over both Serra and Mitty which guarantees them a spot if they lose Friday night as they will be placed ahead of the DII loser regardless of the DI result.
2. Palma holds a CCS point advantage over either DI loser and would be placed into regionals regardless of DI result
That leaves the loser of the DI and DII game for the final regional spot
3. Menlo-Atherton - In if Serra wins, out if Serra loses based on common opponents.
4. Milpitas - in if Mitty wins, out if Mitty loses. Based on common opponent vs Mitty or CCS points vs Serra
5. Serra - In if Milpitas wins, out if Milpitas losses. Based on common opponent vs Menlo-Atherton - CCS points vs Milpitas
6. Mitty - In if Menlo-Atherton wins, out if Menlo-Atherton loses. Based on common opponents vs Menlo-Atherton and Milpitas.
Division I
3. Milpitas 10-2 26.5 (8) vs 1. Menlo Atherton 10-2 (4) 26.5
at Independence High School Friday 7:00 PM
Calpreps projection Menlo-Atherton 28-21
Division II
6. Mitty 7-5 21.5 (7) vs 5. Serra 8-4 24 (2) at Westmont High School Friday 7:00 PM
Calpreps projection Serra 35-21
Division III
2. Valley Christian 11-1 29 (1) vs 1. Palma 10-2 30.33 (6) at Oak Grove High School Friday 7:00 PM
Calpreps Projection Valley Christian 28-13
Division IV
2. Soledad 9-3 21.5 (41) vs 1. Westmont 11-1 24.5 (24) Saturday Independence High School 7:00 PM
Calpreps projection Westmont 21-19
Division V
4. Half Moon Bay 10-2 23 (14) vs 3. Menlo 11-1 24.5 (15) Saturday Sequoia High School time TBD
Calpreps projection Menlo 31-28
Three winners of DI, DII and DIII and loser of the DIII game will get regional play-off berths. The last spot will be between the loser of the DI and DII games.
CCS criteria for selecting among two of the three losing teams is as follows:
1. Head to Head match-ups
2. Record vs common opponents
3. CCS Play-off points
Head to Head match-up advantages:
Valley Cristian over Serra
Valley Christian over Mitty
Common Opponent advantages:
In parentheses common opponent with a different record
Menlo-Atherton over Mitty (Bellarmine)
Mitty Over Milpitas (Los Gatos)
Serra Over Menlo-Atherton (Bellarmine)
Valley Christian over Menlo-Atherton (Bellarmine)
Serra over Palma (St. Francis)
CCS Points
1. Palma 30.33
2. Menlo-Atherton 30
3. Valley Christian 29
4. Milpitas 26.5
5. Serra 24
6. Mitty 21.5
Here is how it looks for all 6 teams if they would lose
1. Valley Christian owns head to head victories over both Serra and Mitty which guarantees them a spot if they lose Friday night as they will be placed ahead of the DII loser regardless of the DI result.
2. Palma holds a CCS point advantage over either DI loser and would be placed into regionals regardless of DI result
That leaves the loser of the DI and DII game for the final regional spot
3. Menlo-Atherton - In if Serra wins, out if Serra loses based on common opponents.
4. Milpitas - in if Mitty wins, out if Mitty loses. Based on common opponent vs Mitty or CCS points vs Serra
5. Serra - In if Milpitas wins, out if Milpitas losses. Based on common opponent vs Menlo-Atherton - CCS points vs Milpitas
6. Mitty - In if Menlo-Atherton wins, out if Menlo-Atherton loses. Based on common opponents vs Menlo-Atherton and Milpitas.
Has it been said somewhere that the M-A win doesn't wash out the loss? When the committee chose this tie-breaker, I don't believe they took a rematch into consideration.
My understanding (not definitive by powers that be) is that play-off games count in the equation of common opponents. It would be reasonable that MA's record vs Bellarmine would be seen as 1-1 which is worse than teams that went 1-0 (Serra and VC) but better than teams that went 0-1 (Mitty).
In the event that only the regular season is counted I don't think it will really matter as MA would then still get in over Mitty based on CCS points as they would have a wash under common opponents. Under the scenario where play-off opponent count they were still behind Serra and VC in common opponent.
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I don't profess to know how the CCS equations work, but would hope that a playoff game would have at least equal weight to a preseason or regular season game, if not count more.
I agree that both the regular season and playoffs should could towards the common-opponents tie-breaker. I also agree that if someone were to tell M-A "Well, Serra beat Bellarmine and you guys lost to them", their response will be "But, we just beat them in the playoffs." That's got to count for something.
I understand the logic of the 1-1 record, but to me, that's not significantly different than 0-0. To 'observer's' point, I would argue that the later result should carry more weight.
I agree that VC and Palma are safe, but I'm not so sure about Serra if Palma and Milpitas were to win. I could see (and couldn't strongly disagree) with a Serra selection, though. I think the Padres would be a nightmare for just about anyone they'd face in the regionals due to their record. They won't likely get a high seed, which could result in a competitive imbalance.
Cal14,
Whether or not you agree with the criteria - I do think the CCS has done a good job of making the selection criteria for regionals (and section play-offs) transparent and not subject to a subjective, political process.
In the case where Palma, Mitty and Milpitas were to win. Then the criteria would be applied to VC, Serra and MA. VC would hold a head to head advantage over Serra and a common opponent advantage over MA (Bellarmine - 1-0 record vs 1-1 record). Serra would hold the same common opponent advantage over MA and would get the final spot. The CCS selection committee is not going to ignore the regular season loss MA had to Bellarmine because they beat them in the play-offs and call it 0-0, they have to call it 1-1 as it is a common opponent among the three schools.
In the end it will have nothing to do with who anyone thinks is a better team among whichever three teams are being decided between. It will simply come down to applying the criteria in order the CCS has set out to select two teams out of the three options. First) head to head records; second) record against common opponents and if still no determination then third) CCS power points.
